My attack on swingcat

[Mack Wild]

That's right I am calling out swingcat.

First I just want to say that following his order of game has gotten me laid a few times, when I can keep up the relentless attraction for the entire time. Basically that's what his method is. It's taking A2 and stretching it the entire time. Once you stop, your done. Sure there is a lot of firepower but you better be able to sustain it until the lay, and then somehow evolve it.

Most Pua's are influenced heavily by swing myself included, but the fact is he is switching the dynamic. He is trying to make the girl chase you. He is teaching you to compell the woman to chase. However that is against their biological circuitry. A woman wants to be taken man, and made submissive. Sure there needs to be attraction there but it is extremely hard to keep up swings frame because you got the time bridge problems, the meeting up for a day 2 and all that.

His stuff is powerful but it is also complex and hard to sustain and full close with. Women are very skeptical and combative with it at times because it is against their nature to chase the guy on so many levels. That doesnt mean the guy needs to be needy or wussy or relationship guy .. but I think a woman needs a guy to make some moves, not expect her to make them all.

I think this stuff works really well on some women but is not the best way to go with the average girl. There's no way to transition to direct at all, even during LMR!!!!!!!!!! (which admittedly they dont get when you use swings stuff effectively)

Ehhh Im confused man, so many pluses and minuses. What do you guys think??? lol.

I'm so close to just throwing that swing stuff out for the most part and just being more aggressive but not needy and using the whole FB frame.

[blade]

microcalibration is where it's at.

[Mack Wild]

microcalibration is where it's at.

Im not familiar with this concept but are you saying it's to be layered on top of Swings work, or where it's at instead???

My problem is i am starting to feel like it's easier not to be as gamey as swing condones. While his shit is really powerful and it's trickled down to be prevelent throughout the community, it draws on a lot of bs that I simply am starting to feel isnt needed in the first place.

[JekDaPUA]

being high value as a state of being is where its at

[Mack Wild]

being high value as a state of being is where its at

Yeah yeah I know but I am just trying to tighten up and solve this whole attraction game thing at the same time as that. Gotta finish what I started .. ya know?

[JekDaPUA]

attraction is just interest

being interesting, enthusiastic and suck people into ur reality

thats all there is to it

if you are high value, then it will be demonstrated through the sub text

if you still need to demonstrate value to become high value, then simply use things that you are genuinely interested in and find fascinating

apart from that be in a sexual/friendly state and don't be afraid to be a masculine man who knows what he wants

to be honest I find attraction to be quite straight forward

[Mack Wild]

attraction is just interest

being interesting, enthusiastic and suck people into ur reality

thats all there is to it

if you are high value, then it will be demonstrated through the sub text

if you still need to demonstrate value to become high value, then simply use things that you are genuinely interested in and find fascinating

apart from that be in a sexual/friendly state and don't be afraid to be a masculine man who knows what he wants

to be honest I find attraction to be quite straight forward

Ok obviously your really not quite sure what your talking about man. My question is about swingcat and trying to make the woman chase all the time the hard to get stuff, putting them in the friend box, doing high grade things to get them to chase you but without really caring whether or not they do. I am saying that I think that kills attraction for a lot of girls. From what you just wrote it doesnt even appear that you are even familiar with swingcats stuff.

Yes Swingcats stuff demonstrates a high value, sucks people into your reality and makes you fascinating. Great. Woopy doo. That's like basic stuff right there.

The way he does it though, is what I am questioning. It's all great and dandy but it's too much for the average girl it seems. It's TOO counterintuitive to their nature.

[Argo navis]

I think style is a matter of congruency. I have read a lot about :

direct/direct (talk/body language - mehow)
vs indirect/indirect (the MM, negging lots, DHVing etc.)

You'll find amazing PUAs coming in different flavors, with a common denominator - a deep understanding of social dynamics.

But what works for you, that is what you should develop - educated guess : swingcat's approach is 100% consistent with everything he says and his body language, so it works that way for him.

[Mack Wild]

I think style is a matter of congruency. I have read a lot about :

direct/direct (talk/body language - mehow)
vs indirect/indirect (the MM, negging lots, DHVing etc.)

You'll find amazing PUAs coming in different flavors, with a common denominator - a deep understanding of social dynamics.

But what works for you, that is what you should develop - educated guess : swingcat's approach is 100% consistent with everything he says and his body language, so it works that way for him.

Thing is

I am very congruent with Swing, and I am the kind of person that compels to chase. However I am also a really high caliber awesome qualifier. Like really good at genuine qualification that will just hit a girl and make her feel giddy and on crack. Also if I like a girl I want to be able to go after her once I see that she is totally into me. Swings way doesnt really allow for any of those things.

[Decibel]

The frame of prizability is a good one and it should be carried through until she chases. Then you take it just a little further to make sure she's heavily qualifying and hoping she doesn't screw this one up. But at some point you need to be on the same level as her to build rapport so I agree it's possible to take prizability too far. I refer you to The Judge who has made prizability an artform, and it works fantastically for him.

[Mack Wild]

The frame of prizability is a good one and it should be carried through until she chases. Then you take it just a little further to make sure she's heavily qualifying and hoping she doesn't screw this one up. But at some point you need to be on the same level as her to build rapport so I agree it's possible to take prizability too far. I refer you to The Judge who has made prizability an artform, and it works fantastically for him.

Thanks man. When you say:

"But at some point you need to be on the same level as her to build rapport so I agree it's possible to take prizability too far."

You hit on my SP. I either take it too far or I qualify and equal her. Either way I lose her. Once in a while I lay them by never qualifying and keeping that dynamic the entire time. Even push pulling over whether I will give them my cock as they orgasm. They beg for it.

[Decibel]

Making them work for the cock during sex is still a prizability tactic, so it can work up to the very end.
So have you analyzed the ones that didn't work out to figure out why? In my failures I've seen a tendency to show too much neediness or future projection, and I've become much more aloof. I don't maintain prizability throughout the encounters, but I do drop a statement in every so often so they don't forget I'm preselected and high value, and take some work to get into bed.
Like everything we do it's an artform. You'll eventually find that balance between letting her have what she wants and remaining just out of her reach.

[Mack Wild]

Making them work for the cock during sex is still a prizability tactic, so it can work up to the very end.
So have you analyzed the ones that didn't work out to figure out why? In my failures I've seen a tendency to show too much neediness or future projection, and I've become much more aloof. I don't maintain prizability throughout the encounters, but I do drop a statement in every so often so they don't forget I'm preselected and high value, and take some work to get into bed.
Like everything we do it's an artform. You'll eventually find that balance between letting her have what she wants and remaining just out of her reach.


I wouldnt call it needyness as much as showing too much approval and qualification in a way that kind of undermines the whole "im not so sure about you" frame that swing is so good at talking about. One thing definately is future projection. I mean you have to get together with them, the fact is the women arnt use to chasing. You may get them horny but they usually still are not going to say "IM COMING OVER" or "LETS HANG OUT RIGHT NOW". You have to kind of guide this thing along and for THEM this is a great time to test your frame because they are feeling very high sexual tension and arousal, they know if they meet up they will lay you if you keep this up ... so what better time then to fuck you up during your attempt to get togehter. I mean afterall if he is the prize why does HE want to meet up with ME??? Get what I am saying?

The whole thing with swing is just really wacky stuff, just like him. lol.

So they test and basically if you want to really keep up the act you gotta punish them, freeze them out. I mean shit I do get laid by doing this, and it's always awesome when it happens but sometimes it takes like 6 freakin months. I mean you have to be ready to walk constantly and freeze out constantly to hold that kind of a frame congruently. That kind of a frame brings on congruence tests like 3 bowls of chili with a gallon of milk brings on the shits.

[Decibel]

The only other thing I'd point out is that prizability can stay very subtle so it doesn't put her off. Example, I didn't call an HB for about 2 weeks after day 1 (I did some text game to keep her interested in the meantime). I started the convo this week with 'Sorry I haven't called but I've been really busy.'
This is a common statement, but it does subcom that I am the prize and so naturally she's disappointed I haven't called her. If you keep setting that frame subtly, I think it does the trick without pushing her away.

[Argo navis]

I brought up consistency because a friend of mine, self made kind of lawyer dude, is like that.

I mean : he probably is the least demonstrative person I ever met, caring, though, but very naturally "distant" and it's NORMAL to him. It's his reality 120% and nobody will throw him off.

So, last year, he went on a trip abroad with his family, a girl friend (but guy is faithful), AND left his regular home. She was mad about it, she really was. But when he came back, she was like a puppy.

He does bring up things subtly, is a good communicator, but he simply never doubts his frame and would really dump 20 girls in a row rather than staying wherever he doesn't feel it.

Hope it helps : guy believes he is the shit (not in a boasted way, in a natural "I am the owner of everything I accept in my life" way). And it works for him with a lot of "prizing" flowing naturally in his game.

[The Judge]

First, thanks for the props Decibel. It's true, the most effective and quickest way to create attraction and get a girl into bed is to make her believe SHE'S seducing you and that YOU'RE letting her.

But, as Decibel said, prizability is literally an "art form". An art form that has three parts:

1.) Conversational jujitsu to re-frame the entire interaction that she's chasing you.
2.) Making sure she can justify chasing you because you're conveying value through stories and humor.
3.) Assuming your role as a man and taking what you want when you want it. (Allowing her plausible deniablity)

See, I used to think it was just about #1 and if you simply re-framed everything she was saying by setting a prize meta-frame, you'd create attraction. But it's more than that (and, hence, the SP I think you're running into)

For a woman, she will ONLY accept your frame/reality if she truly sees you as a prize. Additionally, she won't let you escalate sexually with her unless you create some trust, comfort, rapport, and connection while making her feel as if she's qualified herself to you and lived up to your standards. So how do you bridge all this under the umbrella of prizability?

Make it an art form.

How I go about doing this is by telling stories. On a D2, I have a canon of topics and stories I thread that sub-com my biographical story, bait her to qualify herself, and allow me to establish my "prizable" reality. These stories are fairly mundane (I'll list a few as examples):

1.) I wanted a Rainbow Bright doll when I was kid but my dad said no because he thought it meant I was gay.
2.) The first girl I fell in love with in 7th grade and how she broke my heart. (Don't be fooled by the synopsis, this story should be filled in the "humor/romantic comedy" genre)
3.) How vulnerable I felt the first time I traveled through Europe.

Since I've told these stories on dozens of D2 to scores of different women, I know where the humorous parts are, where to pause for effects, etc. Since these stories pump their BT, it's raising my value, but these stories also serve to display my personality, develop a connection, while also displaying a bit of vulnerability.

And, what almost always ends up happening is a HB will volunteer a story of her own. (If she doesn't, I usually just end on a philosophical point and then turn to spotlight on her by saying something like, "So what was your first boyfriend like?"). Let her tell her story, make some funny remark on it (a playful joke that'll hopefully get her laughing) and once her BT is spiked introduce the point system. For example, the first time a girl qualifies herself and I like her story/answer, I'll say, "That was cute. You're getting 2 points." Always, they'll react with something like, "What?! What do you mean 2 points??" Which I reply, "Everyone I meet is on a point system. Get 15 points and I'll tell you about the first time I lost my virginity - which, if you think the Rainbow Bright story was funny and embarrassing, wait till you hear this one because it went down in the backseat of my mom's purple minivan!!" And, every single girl I've put on the point system has reacted the same way: in 3 phases:

Phase 1: Outright shock and the "how-dare-you" face, usually telling me I'm the one who has to win points. (Just don't react to this, I usually just look at them and smile, as if to say, "Oh, you'll want these points")

Phase 2: Willingness to qualify herself and jump through my hoops to win points. (For example, usually a girl will tell me some funny story, and I'll laugh and say, "Oh man, that was good. 3 points!" where she'll be like, "Wait wait! But there's more!!" and she'll try to extend the story because she unconsciously is buying into my frame, and, since she's winning, she wants to keep "playing")

Phase 3: Complete obsession with the points system. (If you do this right, girls will start asking me every 10 minutes, "How am I doing? Am I getting points for doing blah blah blah" I've even had girls (models!) get nervous to the point where they say, "I'm sort of nervous because I can tell you have really high standards."

Wow, there's so much more I can detail, but I'll stop here for now and if this is helpful I'll try to write more later.

Pax,
~TJ

[Mack Wild]

I brought up consistency because a friend of mine, self made kind of lawyer dude, is like that.

I mean : he probably is the least demonstrative person I ever met, caring, though, but very naturally "distant" and it's NORMAL to him. It's his reality 120% and nobody will throw him off.

So, last year, he went on a trip abroad with his family, a girl friend (but guy is faithful), AND left his regular home. She was mad about it, she really was. But when he came back, she was like a puppy.

He does bring up things subtly, is a good communicator, but he simply never doubts his frame and would really dump 20 girls in a row rather than staying wherever he doesn't feel it.

Hope it helps : guy believes he is the shit (not in a boasted way, in a natural "I am the owner of everything I accept in my life" way). And it works for him with a lot of "prizing" flowing naturally in his game.


As with everything you do it must be congruent, so I agree with your example. I also have considered toning down the frame, although most of the frame is delivered in a somewhat playful manner, the girls know I am flirting. I do a lot of push/pull type of stuff and sexual frame reversals. The sexual frame reversals is what seem to get the ego involved the most.

What ultimately will happen that will get me off track is when she tests me by either playing possum and acting vulnerable .. making me want to comfort her and make her feel good, when I am going for a time bridge and end up losing my frame because now I like her and want her to a degree .. OR she just gets so crazy about me and seems infactuated with me, and it doesnt feel right to not accept her at that point, it just seems twisted and wrong to me .. even if I dont feel quite the same about her.

So maybe this is an inner game thing. Maybe I am too "soft" for this .. but it certainly fits my persona and is really fun for me and the girls. It's very sexy. So I am trying to find a compromise somehow.

**DISCLAIMER**

Haven't read The judge post yet, I appreciate all the awesome feedback btw. RSD may be the inner game guys but you guys are clearly the masters of outer game and fine tuning things.

[Mack Wild]

First, thanks for the props Decibel. It's true, the most effective and quickest way to create attraction and get a girl into bed is to make her believe SHE'S seducing you and that YOU'RE letting her.

But, as Decibel said, prizability is literally an "art form". An art form that has three parts:

1.) Conversational jujitsu to re-frame the entire interaction that she's chasing you.
2.) Making sure she can justify chasing you because you're conveying value through stories and humor.
3.) Assuming your role as a man and taking what you want when you want it. (Allowing her plausible deniablity)

See, I used to think it was just about #1 and if you simply re-framed everything she was saying by setting a prize meta-frame, you'd create attraction. But it's more than that (and, hence, the SP I think you're running into)

For a woman, she will ONLY accept your frame/reality if she truly sees you as a prize. Additionally, she won't let you escalate sexually with her unless you create some trust, comfort, rapport, and connection while making her feel as if she's qualified herself to you and lived up to your standards. So how do you bridge all this under the umbrella of prizability?

Make it an art form.

How I go about doing this is by telling stories. On a D2, I have a canon of topics and stories I thread that sub-com my biographical story, bait her to qualify herself, and allow me to establish my "prizable" reality. These stories are fairly mundane (I'll list a few as examples):

1.) I wanted a Rainbow Bright doll when I was kid but my dad said no because he thought it meant I was gay.
2.) The first girl I fell in love with in 7th grade and how she broke my heart. (Don't be fooled by the synopsis, this story should be filled in the "humor/romantic comedy" genre)
3.) How vulnerable I felt the first time I traveled through Europe.

Since I've told these stories on dozens of D2 to scores of different women, I know where the humorous parts are, where to pause for effects, etc. Since these stories pump their BT, it's raising my value, but these stories also serve to display my personality, develop a connection, while also displaying a bit of vulnerability.

And, what almost always ends up happening is a HB will volunteer a story of her own. (If she doesn't, I usually just end on a philosophical point and then turn to spotlight on her by saying something like, "So what was your first boyfriend like?"). Let her tell her story, make some funny remark on it (a playful joke that'll hopefully get her laughing) and once her BT is spiked introduce the point system. For example, the first time a girl qualifies herself and I like her story/answer, I'll say, "That was cute. You're getting 2 points." Always, they'll react with something like, "What?! What do you mean 2 points??" Which I reply, "Everyone I meet is on a point system. Get 15 points and I'll tell you about the first time I lost my virginity - which, if you think the Rainbow Bright story was funny and embarrassing, wait till you hear this one because it went down in the backseat of my mom's purple minivan!!" And, every single girl I've put on the point system has reacted the same way: in 3 phases:

Phase 1: Outright shock and the "how-dare-you" face, usually telling me I'm the one who has to win points. (Just don't react to this, I usually just look at them and smile, as if to say, "Oh, you'll want these points")

Phase 2: Willingness to qualify herself and jump through my hoops to win points. (For example, usually a girl will tell me some funny story, and I'll laugh and say, "Oh man, that was good. 3 points!" where she'll be like, "Wait wait! But there's more!!" and she'll try to extend the story because she unconsciously is buying into my frame, and, since she's winning, she wants to keep "playing")

Phase 3: Complete obsession with the points system. (If you do this right, girls will start asking me every 10 minutes, "How am I doing? Am I getting points for doing blah blah blah" I've even had girls (models!) get nervous to the point where they say, "I'm sort of nervous because I can tell you have really high standards."

Wow, there's so much more I can detail, but I'll stop here for now and if this is helpful I'll try to write more later.

Pax,
~TJ

It's very helpful dude, it would be cool if you would write more. It's actually reminding me of what I do when I have success with it. It's like "how to do it right".

[The Judge]

It's very helpful dude, it would be cool if you would write more. It's actually reminding me of what I do when I have success with it. It's like "how to do it right".

Cool, you got it.

To address a good point you made earlier:How do you remain congruent to a "prize" frame when you're calling her and escalating?

I absolutely agree it's incongruent for a guy who's the "prize" to call a woman once, let alone put up with her flaky bullshit and/or hesitation to escalate. As I developed a stronger and stronger frame, I strayed further and further from things like freeze outs and kiss gambits. I couldn't get either to work for me and here's why: A prizable guy would never react to a girl's hesitation or gauge if she's ready to kiss him. (I'll explain what does work in a second, but first, an explanation of my third point of my "3 points of prizablity": Assuming your role as a man and taking what you want when you want it. (Allowing her plausible deniablity)

Even though I'm setting a frame that I'm high value, assuming the behaviors of a HB10 (in fact, I stole some of my best lines from 10s), I don't forget that I AM THE MAN. As a man, it's YOUR responsibility to escalate, call, lead, and take risks. To do this, remove the question mark as a punctuation mark in your vocabulary. When you want to move her somewhere, don't ask, "Want to sit somewhere else?" You just go, "Hey, I want to hear you better. Come on" and start walking. When you want her phone number, you don't ask her, "How can we continue this conversation later?" (although this is a good line and have gotten it to work in other contexts), simply pull out your phone, hand it to her and say, "Put your number in. You're interesting, we can hang out again." Basically, everything you do comes from a place of: I'm a high value prize, I have hordes of women vying for my time, you [the HB] are beginning to impress me so I will give you a chance to seduce me (of course assuming she's already wanted you since she saw you).

Side note: If this sounds arrogant or too-cocky, just ask yourself: What is your non-arrogant, not-cocky attitude getting you? Exactly.

Moving on, you're going to have to abandon kiss gambits and freeze outs. They don't work in this frame. First, kiss gambits come off beta (no matter how good your delivery, HBs will always sense that you're tentatively gauging if it's okay to kiss her). If I know I have the IOIs, I simply pull a girl into me as she's talking midsentence and kiss her. If I just met a girl, and I'm not positive if she's ready, I slow down my speaking, stroke her hair, and gaze into her eyes. I've had girls say to me, "I'm not going to make out with you if that's what you're trying to do" which I ignore and stack into a new thread. Simply act like her rejection has no effect on your frame or value. This is why freeze outs don't work in this frame. They convey that you care and are effected by rejection (even if it does get her feeling a sense of loss). I've had girls making out with me, then tell me "we're not going any further". And my response was, "Cool, actually I forgot to tell you this story. Get this..." tell them a few stories, get them laughing, introduce some kino, start making out again, and wa-la! we're going further!

Before I end this section, a word on calling and storytelling. Again, everything has to come from a place of high value, but, paradoxically, also must involve you taking risks and leading. Therefore, when I call girls, I always do it under some pretext. For example, my favorite line when calling a HB is, "Hey, I'm taking a 5 minute break from my writing and thought I'd let you distract me for a few" All your value is embedded in there (i.e. pretext for calling, living in your reality, non-needy FTC) so, even though you're leading, escalating, and taking a risk you're also protecting your frame.

Secondly, storytelling and jokes, especially on the opener, has to come from a place where you're not obviously trying to impress her. (My best stories have BOMBED if I make it obvious I'm trying to tell them). Come from a headspace that seems like you're simply telling the story/joke for your or your wing's enjoyment. I remember one of my better openers was on this cute redhead as she took two drinks off a bar for her and her friend. As she passed me, I grabbed her, turned to my wing, and said (laughing), "Oh shit, Chris, look at this...Lindsey Lohan is back at it again. Double fisting. Holy shit, take this girl's keys away. She's gonna get another DUI..." This opener busted her whole set open (there were actually like 10 girls with her) because it wasn't delivered like I was trying to impress her, it was more like I was using her as a prop for my and my wing's enjoyment...

If anything's unclear or you have any more questions, let me know.

[latinguy]

Nice post judge.

I think you'er still basically doing a freezeout when you launch into a story after some LMR.. but maybe thats a better way to go about it rather than using a freezeout. I will test it for myself and report back.

[The Judge]

Nice post judge.

I think you'er still basically doing a freezeout when you launch into a story after some LMR.. but maybe thats a better way to go about it rather than using a freezeout. I will test it for myself and report back.

Latinguy - I think the difference between a freezeout and story is a freeze out is literally cold. You blow her off. You ignore her. And the point of it is to make her feel loss and discomfort. Whereas a story pumps her emotional circuitry and displays you're high value and not phased by other people's opinions/actions. A true prizable guy wouldn't care if he was rejected, he'd actually probably think it was a little cute (I actually do think it's cute when girls say no...it's understandable and shows they're not total hornballs). If I can get a girl laughing again and let her rejection roll off my back without reacting negatively or positively, it seems to create this weird sexual tension. Later when either her and I initiate the make out 10 minutes later, I can feel she's much more engaged and into it.

Try it out and let me know how it works...

[latinguy]

Judge, the point of a freezeout is not to react negatively or positively. Its just to change the tone away from escalating totally. Mystery talks about how he brings out his chess set and offers to play chess with the girl when she LMR's. I've been doing email on my phone. When they ask if something is wrong, you say of course not, you're just checking email. You need to make sure your body language doesn't show any kind of reaction and that you still really like them, etc.

I like what you're doing.

[The Judge]

Judge, the point of a freezeout is not to react negatively or positively. Its just to change the tone away from escalating totally. Mystery talks about how he brings out his chess set and offers to play chess with the girl when she LMR's. I've been doing email on my phone. When they ask if something is wrong, you say of course not, you're just checking email. You need to make sure your body language doesn't show any kind of reaction and that you still really like them, etc.

I like what you're doing.

Hmm...I've tried checking my email on my computer a few times (while in my apartment) and it just seemed to go no where. It threw the girl out of state, she started getting dressed, and ultimately it just didn't work for me.

When I started doing the story routine, I noticed it keeps the good emotions flowing while keeping her in state (in my experience, a girl's state is probably the most important determinant of what she's gonna do). Most importantly, logic and ASD won't start overpowering her brain. So she'll stay in the moment, not get dressed (if its progressed that far), while sexual tension is mounting.

(On a smaller scale, it's the same thing when you try to bounce a girl to another part of the venue but she resists. You ignore it, stack and plow, pump her BT a little more then ask again. Usually she'll comply if you did it right...)

[latinguy]

The only problem I could see is that you're potentially positively rewarding ASD by telling more nice stories, etc. But I will try your method next time.

[The Judge]

The only problem I could see is that you're potentially positively rewarding ASD by telling more nice stories, etc. But I will try your method next time.

ASD shouldn't necessarily be punished. It's a completely natural thing for a girl to feel ASD and, if she's feeling it, it's probably the PUA's fault. It's not an IOD because she legitimately feels uncomfortable for a reason completely unrelated to you (it's about her and her reputation..which is 100X more important to girls than guys). Don't treat ASD like an IOD or try to punish her for it...IMO

[Marc-Antony]

Swingcat is good stuff ... my natural game is pretty much a mix of C&F, swingcat.

[Greystoke]

Dont attack his method if he is not here to defend himself.

[JekDaPUA]

Sorry I was being more general in my response and not discussing it from the point of Swingcats material

although I've been told his psychological works is some very powerful stuff when implemented correctly.

I read the Judges post, and I'd say that was the best explanation of it all

[Mack Wild]

First, kiss gambits come off beta (no matter how good your delivery, HBs will always sense that you're tentatively gauging if it's okay to kiss her).

Mine is almost always:

Me: On a scale of 1-69 ... how good of a kisser are you?
Her: 69
Me: I don't believe you (OR) prove it (OR) Lets see it.

I would think that would fall into this frame, but correct me if I'm wrong.

If I know I have the IOIs, I simply pull a girl into me as she's talking midsentence and kiss her.

Thats pretty hot shit right there man. Takes some big balls.

If I just met a girl, and I'm not positive if she's ready, I slow down my speaking, stroke her hair, and gaze into her eyes. I've had girls say to me, "I'm not going to make out with you if that's what you're trying to do" which I ignore and stack into a new thread. Simply act like her rejection has no effect on your frame or value.

So don't even acknowledge it at all? NO reaction whatsoever??? What about reversing the frame back at her? What about laughing? What about being like "Are you giving me shit women?" (playfully challenging) What about "Don't even start, who do you think your dealing with?" and then dropping it. (confidence) What about just giving her the look or maybe shaking your head (yea whatever chick).


This is why freeze outs don't work in this frame.

Shit, that is usually my only weapon against any rebellion. It works sometimes but I agree, doesnt seem as effective when applying heavy prizing. So how DO you deal with flakey or indecisive behavior? Wonder if she agrees to hang out but pulls out the friend frame as a defence mechanism?

They convey that you care and are effected by rejection (even if it does get her feeling a sense of loss). I've had girls making out with me, then tell me "we're not going any further". And my response was, "Cool, actually I forgot to tell you this story. Get this..." tell them a few stories, get them laughing, introduce some kino, start making out again, and wa-la! we're going further!

Stories have always been my acquiles heal, I am good with I statements, talking about my values, likes/dislikes, making observations about her, cold reads, but stories (unless they are simple and not all that exciting) just are not a skill of mine. Is it that important to make this work better to be able to tell good stories?? or can I get around it? I mean I can throw down a story here and there, but I don't have a vault.

Before I end this section, a word on calling and storytelling. Again, everything has to come from a place of high value, but, paradoxically, also must involve you taking risks and leading. Therefore, when I call girls, I always do it under some pretext. For example, my favorite line when calling a HB is, "Hey, I'm taking a 5 minute break from my writing and thought I'd let you distract me for a few" All your value is embedded in there (i.e. pretext for calling, living in your reality, non-needy FTC) so, even though you're leading, escalating, and taking a risk you're also protecting your frame.

Very cool stuff broseph.

Secondly, storytelling and jokes, especially on the opener, has to come from a place where you're not obviously trying to impress her. (My best stories have BOMBED if I make it obvious I'm trying to tell them). Come from a headspace that seems like you're simply telling the story/joke for your or your wing's enjoyment.

I'm great with disqualifying myself and agreeing with her judgements rather than jumping her hoop (i.e refusing to qualify)


You give some stellar advice on this frame man. I feel like you have covered a lot of ground here. A couple more questions to add:

Do you cast these girls into a friend frame and continue to escalate and do takeaways to drive them batty?

Do you EVER qualify these girls, and if you do how do you do it and if you don't how do you make them feel comfortable enough to get together with you?

Lol. If you are able to answer all these questions I believe we will have a thread here for the ages. It will be a complete HOW TO on prizing!!!!!! Swingcats your wing isn't he??!?!?!? :-)

[Decibel]

Yeah, TJ is the true master of frame and prizability. This thread has convinced me to devote a new chapter in the guide to this topic.

[The Judge]

Mine is almost always:

Me: On a scale of 1-69 ... how good of a kisser are you?
Her: 69
Me: I don't believe you (OR) prove it (OR) Lets see it.

I would think that would fall into this frame, but correct me if I'm wrong.


Hmmm...this is a good gambit to use in the field (I actually used this successfully last night) since sometimes there are external factors involved (i.e. friends watching, girl hates PDA, etc.), but on a D2, there's no reason for it. Additionally, I like to frame it like this:

The Judge: From 1 to 10 how good of a kisser are you?

HB: 10

The Judge: Okay, because if you are, that'll get you some major points. But, be warned, if you suck, that would be a deal breaker...I'd have to stick you in the friend zone...


Thats pretty hot shit right there man. Takes some big balls.


Just go for it. It doesn't take that much balls. Whenever you hesitate about doing something "ballsy", just ask: What is that attitude getting me?

Also, think about it this way: If she doesn't want to kiss you (or isn't sure yet), a gambit will give her brain time to logically process a no. However, just going for it during a BT-spike will turn a "maybe" into a "yes", and a "yes" into "wow, this guy's confident!" (stoking her sexual attraction)

(I once had a HB in my apartment who claimed she wasn't even sure if she was attracted to me until I just grabbed and kissed her. Later (after sex) she said the thing that turned her on the most was how I knew exactly what I wanted and just went for it - from kissing to sex.)


So don't even acknowledge it at all? NO reaction whatsoever??? What about reversing the frame back at her? What about laughing? What about being like "Are you giving me shit women?" (playfully challenging) What about "Don't even start, who do you think your dealing with?" and then dropping it. (confidence) What about just giving her the look or maybe shaking your head (yea whatever chick).

I've tried most of these and find it's always more effective to just remain totally unphased. Literally practice saying these two shit-test destroyers: "Cool" and "Cute". Every AFC gets all awkward and weirded out when they go for the kiss and get denied. They either try again, get embarrassed, or flip out. To me, a girl saying no to the kiss is simply a shit test to see if you're really high value. To be honest, when that girl said to me "I'm not gonna make out with you if that's what you're trying" I think I replied, "Presumptuous" and stacked. (Because saying shit like that is sort of rude so I wanted to punish her a little for it...also "presumptuous" is one of my favorite words haha)

There is one other response I like using (but not really when I get turned down for a kiss or other types of escalation): Try framing her behavior as trying to impress you. For example, if I'm opening and a girl is trying to blow me out, my favorite come back is, "Cute. You know I love feisty girls and here you are acting like one." Just change the adjective and you can use this response for anything. So, say a girl turned her head when I went for the kiss, I might say, "Cute. You know I love coy girls and here you are acting like one." But quickly stack to a BT-pumping story or topic. Don't dwell on it. Women cannot be convinced logically to escalate. HBs only respond to emotion.


Shit, that is usually my only weapon against any rebellion. It works sometimes but I agree, doesnt seem as effective when applying heavy prizing. So how DO you deal with flakey or indecisive behavior? Wonder if she agrees to hang out but pulls out the friend frame as a defence mechanism?


If it's working for you, than keep using it. All my posts are written by sharing what's worked for me. My personality and style is diametrically opposed even to some guys I sarge with (and they pull plenty of HBs). Like anything else, use the stuff you think might work and discard what doesn't.

But, to address the flaky behavior, just do what I said with the kiss rejection: Don't let it phase you. If a girl's a 8 or 9, she gets 1 VM, 1 text, and one final call back. If she doesn't answer her phone or call me back, she's dead to me. But for 10s and 11s, I'll keep trying, usually once a week, with texts or VM that are more for my enjoyment than anything else. I used to text things like "I just saw your twin" but now find even more outrageous texts work better like Mehow's "I guess this is it. I'm moving out. But wtf do we do about the cats? Fluffys mine". Girls will usually respond confused or ask you what the fuck you're talking about. In which case you use that "Cute. You know I love..." line. (Basically, all you're trying to sub-communicate is you're this fun, non-supplicating guy who lives in his own world. You're not going to directly chase her, but you'll send out random texts just to amuse yourself.)

Oh, and if a girl brings friends on a D2, she just set you up to OWN her reality. I used to fear a girl's friends coming out until I realized the potential. If you can win her friends over (again, use your stories, humor, and value), you've put yourself in an even better place than if you simply hung out with her by yourself. Simply don't react positively or negatively, take control of the group, and make yourself the leader. (On a D2 with one of my MLTR, she came out with retinue of friends - both guys and girls - and because I completely dominated the group, her attraction skyrocked)


Stories have always been my acquiles heal, I am good with I statements, talking about my values, likes/dislikes, making observations about her, cold reads, but stories (unless they are simple and not all that exciting) just are not a skill of mine. Is it that important to make this work better to be able to tell good stories?? or can I get around it? I mean I can throw down a story here and there, but I don't have a vault.


Okay, you don't necessarily need great stories to make this system work, but you do need something that gives you enough value to make you prizable. If you're really good looking, dress ridiculously well, have money, have social connections, or possess some other attribute that evinces value, you're fine. The reason I prefer stories (aside from the fact I'm a writer) is you can use it to give value to everyone, any time. For example, if I'm in a mixed set, I can engage everyone with a story. Also, I never run out of stories (I can improv them on the spot if I have to), so I know I always have material to run. This is not to say I'm this weird bard-like guy who is constantly rambling stories. I mix it up with humor and banter as well. (And, really, the content of my stories aren't incredibly complex or interesting...if you simply believe the story you're telling is awesome, chances are so will the person you're telling it to)

If you need help with storytelling, I have 2 posts in the "Best of" section or just send me another PM and I'd be happy to help...


Do you cast these girls into a friend frame and continue to escalate and do takeaways to drive them batty?


No and yes. Like Swinggcat advocates, I never completely validate them, but I also never completely slam the door in their face. I constantly leave them guessing whether I really like them, or if I'm about to lose interest. I could give you some examples of some lines if you want, but I'm sure you get my point.

Also, the takeaways are KEY for sexual tension. If you're making out, make sure you're the one who cuts it off to ask, "Okay, that's all you get for now. Besides I want to hear more about your trip to blah blah blah..." (Mixing some sexual escalation with qualifying and comfort will reduce your flake rate considerably and will stoke the sexual tension between you)


Do you EVER qualify these girls, and if you do how do you do it and if you don't how do you make them feel comfortable enough to get together with you?


All I do is qualify girls. Your whole frame has to be that you're this picky, choosy guy who is vulnerable to really cool girls, but she has to win you over first. In fact, loud venues are like kryptonite to my storytelling abilities, but I can get just as consistent results by simply baiting a girl tell me her stories as I actively qualify and guide her through them. This is truly prizable behavior (as if you're this high value guy who's going to let her entertain you) and it lets you get to know her. And, personally, most of the girls I end up with, actually are pretty interesting (I live in Manhattan so I meet a lot of artists, designers, models, actresses, and professionals). Once you get good at actively qualify women, you can genuinely give them IOIs as they vie for you attentions. And reward them with points!

Hopefully this epic reply answered everything...

Pax,
~TJ

[Mack Wild]

Best of.......

[Argo navis]

Wholeheartedly agree, nice getting some real discussions around here guys, thanks for bringing this up, and The Judge puts beautifully in words what the friend I mentionned earlier demonstrates with actions - make no excuses for your desires as a man.

[jonwef]

One earful of his whiny wavery voice makes me wonder why anyone would trust him to teach them anything. I listened to his audiobook and couldn't finish it, full of blatant blatant blatant lies, idiotic advice, immaturity, etc.

Here is what I think. Being the prize is essential, but you can't fake it, the same way you can't really fake being rich or good at football. You have to really be great in some way.

Secondly, girls do dress up to attract guys in clubs, the caveat is, they are trying to get attractive guys with money or looks, not some whiny moron like Swingcat.

He is the first PUA I have stopped listening to out of disgust.

[Deft9]

Why is The Judge banned? All I see above is him making helpful posts. WTF?