Pick up industry - big business? [Archive]

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A36DD4ME

11-27-2007, 06:57 PM

Do any of you ever suspect that teaching guys to become PUAs is becoming big business and that many of the people in it are just out to make money by peddling junk to desperate AFCs?

To clarify, I think Mystery and Style are really brilliant guys and I think their work is based on sound straight forward behavioral science and contains no hocus pocus at all. I think it is sheer brilliance, plus I know it works first hand :)

But being the analytical guy I am, I have been looking around to see what else is out there and here is what I have found or more accurately, what I have not found. I have found that quite a few of the names being bantered about are not published, had no tangible accomplishments and seem to be hocking their wares only via their own websites. A few of these looked amateurish at best. One notable exception was David Diangelo as he teaches comedy which is something different all together.

Back to the point, I did a little Googling of Neuro Linguistic Programing for example, this is the system used by Ross Jeffries who is cited as being the founder of pickup. I found this:

http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html

While you are on this site you should also see "hypnosis" and whatever else sparks your interest. Long story short, the Skeptics Dictionary says that NLP is a load of crap.

Anyway, I make no claim as to weather or not anybody in the pickup community is a hack. I am only here to pose the question and let you decide.

Please understand the part in bold and don't flame me with "are you saying" comments.

HBPornstar

11-27-2007, 08:54 PM

I read the article about NLP in the skeptic dictionary. As expected, it set out to 'debunk' this method, as skeptics are prone to do. However, while the author was far from balanced in his assessments, he was not saying 'NLP is a load of crap'.

I have had great success with self-administered NLP, (which I elaborate on in this thread http://www.venusianarts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5291 (http://www.venusianarts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5291&highlight=hbpornstar+nlp%29) ), and have had life-altering results in *minutes* at the hands of Steve P (http://www.stevepiccus.com). , the hypnotherapist, about whom Style says "This was a whole new level of game. He was giving me super powers." (The Game p.143)

I have found that quite a few of the names being bantered about are not published, had no tangible accomplishments and seem to be hocking their wares only via their own websites. A few of these looked amateurish at best.Has it ever occurred to you that the only people with *really* professional looking websites are the ones in it for big business? The other ones are too busy teaching the things they can, to the people who want it, to hire professional web developers!

Anyway, I make no claim as to weather or not anybody in the pickup community is a hack. I am only here to pose the question and let you decide.Even if you were making claims, how can anyone take you seriously when you constantly present your opinions as facts, and spread misinformation that is not only incorrect, but also shows you haven't done the most rudimentary research!

David Deangelo does not teach comedy, Ross Jeffries is not the founder of pickup, and the NLP article was not saying 'NLP is a load of crap'.

Read up on the subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community

Cheers!
HBPornstar

Johnny Soporno

11-27-2007, 09:05 PM

David Deangelo does not teach comedy, Ross Jeffries is not the founder of pickup, and the NLP article was not saying 'NLP is a load of crap'.

To be fair, David D' is famous for teaching 'Cocky Comedy' (aka Cocky & Funny) as a pickup technique, so it's easy to understand the oversight, and RJ IS considered 'Founder of the Pickup Community'. Furthermore, by the time you've gone to 'Skeptics' to get an appraisal of something, you know IN ADVANCE that it's going to be pretty negatively-biased from the outset. If I were to look for an appraisal of NLP from a website called 'EnthusiasDic.com' I would expect a glowing review ;)

I have had great success with self-administered NLP

I don't know that it's POSSIBLE to 'self-administer' CLP (Cunni-Linguistic Programming (NSFW!) (http://cunnilinguisticprogramming.com)) but as a Board Certified* Master Therapist, I imagine I could be of some use for you, should you determine some further 'life altering' experiences are warranted.

Johnny Soporno
Doctor of Cunnilinguistics

*Tongue firmly in cheek (or elsewhere ;))

Decibel

11-27-2007, 09:48 PM

Ughh, cunnilingus sucks. Literally.

And whoever owned the cat named Sarge can claim to be the Founder of Pickup. And that man was...

Dox

11-27-2007, 10:49 PM

Dear God, Johnny...not a big fan of watching others practice CLP, I'd much rather practice it myself and develop my own personal style.

However, I almost peed myself laughing, reading the titles :D

animal101

11-27-2007, 11:12 PM

there are tons of snake oil sales men in the PU community , do you think david x is out fucking hot women? tyler durden? (theres even quotes in the game he wasnt getting laid) get real.....

there was one other guy I saw on youtube a few nights ago and there's videos that have women paid to act ...its pretty transparent

its sad in the PUA they were actors but Mystery is 100% the real deal , he fucking rules

Dream

11-27-2007, 11:23 PM

The "community" is becoming as washed out as any industry would be put through the same proccess. A good example is the personal training/fitness industry.

Lots of gurus that so many guys blindly hero worship are cokeheads/have drinking problems and other things they dont want the average guy knowing about.

There are a few guys out there with a positive focus though, so keep your eyes peeled. In the end though, its all lies and bullshit.

-Dream

Johnny Soporno

11-27-2007, 11:39 PM

Ughh, cunnilingus sucks. Literally.

Well, I have to say, I'm sorry for you that you feel that way! For me, it's one of life's sweetest pleasures :)

And whoever owned the cat named Sarge can claim to be the Founder of Pickup. And that man was...

Holy shit! I didn't know Ross Jeffries named his cat after Eric Webber's? That's a nice homage :) Gotta give the man proper respect for SHOWING such proper respect!

Or was it just a trick of fate that Jeffries's cat, Sargy, sounded so much like Sarge?

;)

Johnny Soporno
Smart Ass ;)

Flex

11-28-2007, 01:08 AM

I have absorbed my pickup abilities from an extreme plethora of sources. My efforts have been to internalize everything from everyone. Become a total sponge. Once I have done that, I field test EVERYTHING. How will you know whether something works or doesn't unless YOU try it.

Keeping that in mind, there is no way that any one source can be bullshit, because I am the one who truly delivers it and sees the results.

The best way to avoid losing yourself to an unreliable source of pickup instruction, is to explore every sector of the pickup world. The more you learn from different sources and people, the more you will come to realize the similarities and differences in their logic that you can either leave behind, or run like hell with.

The most I have learned have come from:

Style,
Mystery,
Craig(Grimble),
David DeAngelo,
Ross Jeffries,
Tucker Max,
Lovedrop,
Swinggcat,
Tyler Durden,
Thudercat,
Don Juan Articles,
Lance Mason(Pickup 101: Sure Fire Attraction Secrets),
Robert Green(48 laws of power and Art of Seduction),
Tom Cruise(Top Gun, Magnolia, and Mission Impossible 2),
Rhett Butler(Gone With The Wind),
Swingers(Vince Vaughn's character),
Chasing Amy,
Wedding Crashers,
National Lampoon's Animal House(Eric 'Otter' Stratton's character)

....and the list goes on. There's just a shit-ton of sources out there, that you take piece after piece, until you finally have assembled your own personal puzzle. Once you've got that, you're money.

:)
Flex

A36DD4ME

11-28-2007, 02:17 PM

Sigmund Freud is still regarded as the founder of modern psychology but I don't think much weight is placed on his actual theories anymore.

At one time the most highly respected thinkers thought that the world was flat.

Di Angelo is awesome. His Cocky Comedy is clearly good stuff. There is no reason not to believe that girls love it when guys mess with them the way he suggests.

But hypnosis...

Are there any findings on NLP that are published in any respected academic journals? Has this theory withstood the rigors of peer review? Can anyone cite a source? Are there any accredited colleges that teach the NLP method? Has anyone ever emailed a legitimate professor of behavioral science for an opinion?

I found an article on Steve Piccus on Wikipedia. The article called him the "godfather of pickup." Supposedly he manages a strip joint somewhere. Is this a credential? What would stop me from writing a Wikipedia article about myself claiming to be the first man on Mars?

Again, I'm not making a claim either way, I'm just posing the questions than a critical thinker asks.

Pulse

11-28-2007, 03:07 PM

Okay...

I suggest that from here on in studying this stuff, instead of prejudging things based on your own limiting beliefs or that of someone elses, you actually put into practice the things you are reading and find out for yourself. This is something that virtually 99% of people that discredit other's never do.

Now, NLP and Hypnosis happen to be an area of expertise for me. I am a recently licensed hypnotist, and I have an extremely strong background in both NLP and hypnosis.

Now when I got into this community, I realized I had no idea what I was talking about, so I decided to adopt the aforementioned attitude of "I will take everything at face value, test it for myself, and then make a judgement once I have enough evidence to support it either way."

After Mystery Method, NLP and Hypnosis were some of the first things to get this treatment.

I found a solid script, invited one of my girlfriends over, and started reading. This was literally my first attempt at ever hypnotizing someone. I didn't really believe that it was going to work, but regardless I told her what the sheet of paper said to say before the induction. Afterwards, it was time to begin. The whole time I'm reading it I felt really awkward, and I'm thinking "This isn't going to work, this isn't going to work... this is so stupid," but I continued, and I eventually got to the part where you first start testing them.

"Open your eyes. Now, notice how relaxed your arm is... it's very relaxed... in fact it's so relaxed that it doesn't even want to move... it likes it right where it's at... in fact, even if you try to move it, you won't be able to. Try it now."

So I'm watching her expecting her to move her arms... and I'm watching... and she's looking at her arm... and it's not moving... and she starts laughing. She can't move her arm. She is sitting there telling me that she is trying to move her arm and it's too relaxed to move.

So I continue on... the next time I wake her up I have her forget her name... and then I had nothing else to do and woke her up completely... she was completely baffled how it happened but had fun.

After this experience, and tons of other experiences since then, I've found that hypnosis is in fact real.

Now, fast forward a month or two when I really started to delve into NLP after discovering Derren Brown.

If you don't know who Derren Brown is, go to youtube and search his name and start watching. He uses a lot of NLP in what he does. Some of his stuff is a mix of NLP and showmanship, but there is a lot of pure NLP stuff on there... like "paying with paper.

Also around this time, I bought Hypnotica's Deep Phone Seduction. This single product is the one that set in concrete that NLP worked as well. This product allows you to give virtually any girl multiple orgasms over the phone. I tested this on girls I met on myspace that I had never met before as well as girls I met with regular game.

It worked on both.

I have many audio recording's of these phone calls.

I've also now worked NLP into normal sex... which has since resulted in women I've dated giving me monikers like "The Criss Angel of Sex" or "Sex God."

I've also taught a couple of my close friends to do the same thing.

Now, this is where I realized "I'm glad I didn't listen to all of those people/articles in the very beginning telling me this stuff doesn't work."

There are "factual" scientific studies that say:

1) Some women can't orgasm.

2) Only 30% of women can orgasm during sex.

3) Only some women are multi-orgasmic

4) Only 2% of women can cum from their nipples.

5) Squirting isn't real.

I can tell you that ALL of the past 5 statements, that are backed up by scientific studies, are COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

Why?

Because I can and do teach all of these things to every girl that I date.

Thus you can deduce from here that as far as behavioral science goes, it is all bullshit.

They can't possibly measure all of the necessary variables in order to understand what's happening and why. Thus, with everything experiment or study, there are MASSIVE gaps in why they get the results they do. And the results they get are seriously flawed and don't actually have any value.

Now... that's an indirect way to prove a point about both the validity of NLP and why science doesn't back it up... and moreover why it doesn't matter if science backs anything that has to do with human behavior.

Beyond that... I could also reference the various times that I've completely removed phobias that caused panic in people with NLP, or the times that I've helped people remove debilitating emotional trauma linked to their past, so they can stop crying and being depressed everytime they have to confront it... or even the times that I've given a girl I've never met 80 orgasms in 10 minutes over the phone... without using an language that is overtly sexual.

This is all going to sound pretty crazy... and it should... this information is outside your reality... just like it was outside mine.

Regardless of all the above. You can choose to prejudge something based off the limiting beliefs of others your own, or you can choose to go down the rabbit hole and discover it for yourself without any prejudgments.

I chose the latter... obviously I don't regret it.

HBPornstar

11-28-2007, 03:21 PM

At one time the most highly respected thinkers thought that the world was flat.

But hypnosis...

Are there any findings on NLP that are published in any respected academic journals?

Your first example implies that we should question the 'respected' academic authorities, yet your second example conflicts with that as you seem to be seeking the same level of authority as concrete truth?

My impression is that you are criticizing NLP as a universal panacea; whereas it’s an enabler – a set of approaches, attitudes and techniques. The results will depend on who uses them and the context in which they are used. There are no accredited colleges that teach the Mystery Method, yet many people find success in it's teachings.

Again, I'm not making a claim either way, I'm just posing the questions than a critical thinker asks.

If you truly aren't making a claim either way, then take a more unbiased stance with your statements.

Here's an article you might be interested in. [click here to open pdf (http://www.nlp.com/pdfs/NLP%20study.pdf)]
Also, if you are looking for evidence that NLP has 'withstood the rigors of peer review' then take a look HERE (http://www.nlpinfo.com/) or HERE (http://www.nlp-pro.com/) or HERE (http://www.venusianarts.com/forum/search.php?searchid=107042)

I found an article on Steve Piccus on Wikipedia. The article called him the "godfather of pickup." Supposedly he manages a strip joint somewhere. Is this a credential?

Not sure which article you're referring to, but Steve P.'s colleague Hypnotica (http://www.hypnotica.org/), is the manager of Pure Platinum in San Diego, where they both live, and where I've met them.

Steve is a widely respected, licensed, and certified hypnotherapist, and is in the process of getting a doctorate in some esoteric aspect of sexuality research from USD, if I recall correctly. His DVDs on tantric practices and female ejaculation (www.sensualawakening.com) are brilliant and effective - take it from me ;)

What would stop me from writing a Wikipedia article about myself claiming to be the first man on Mars?

Nothing at all. Wikipedia is a populist composition, self-policing wherever there is sufficient interest. It is not authoritative, but does offer an excellent starting point to begin your research.

Were you the first man on Mars? ;)

Cheers!
HBPornstar

A36DD4ME

11-28-2007, 05:53 PM

So the answer to my question is no.

Why don't you guys send a few letters to some universities and perhaps you can demonstrate your abilities for them.

How does one become a licensed hypnotherapist anyway?

BTW, thanks for the correction HB, I guess it is Hypnotica that manages that strip joint. What ever.

Pulse

11-28-2007, 11:18 PM

Beyonder

11-29-2007, 03:09 AM

You get two great responses and that is your reply.

fuck.... you are worse off than I thought...

Eh.. The 2 responses didn't fall on deaf ears. There are more reading than just him.

I've been hypnotizing people to do silly things for years. It's real.

That arm being heavy thing you mentioned... I, one time worded it wrong, and my subject's mind took it in a COMPLETELY different direction..Scary night.

Good post dude!

A36DD4ME

11-29-2007, 04:40 PM

Pulse

11-29-2007, 06:47 PM

I have no doubt that people who want to be hypnotized can be influenced to act in a certain manner by the power of suggestion - the question is weather or not it works on those who are not willing and have not agreed to go along with it.

In fact now that I think about it I saw one of the top hypnotists on TV demonstrating this and saying that the subject must be a willing participant or it doesn't work. Can't remember the guys name.

My roommate also has a masters in psychology and he said the same thing. It works if the subject wants it to and it is not taught in the major universities.

This is a common misconception that is espoused by people that don't actually know that much about hypnosis. Unfortunately a lot of the information out there on hypnosis is off-base. For certain types of hypnosis, it would be necessary for them to want to be hypnotized... mainly clinical. Obviously if your mind knows that something like that could be happening it is going to lock down. Stage hypnotists also deal with this, and a lot of times reframing takes care of the situation.

But as you said... the question is whether it works on someone who has not agreed... and I'll tell you right now that none of the sexual stuff I mentioned above involved any type of formal hypnosis and the girls did not have any knowledge of what was happening.

Regardless... even if I told someone that I was going to put them in trance... and they were adamantly against it... I could always just slip a mind machine on them and they would have no choice but to go into hypnosis.

The only answer you provided was that it doesn't matter because you say so?

http://forum.denverpua.com/images/smilies/banghead.gif

But ya I agree with the last poster. People will read this thread and it will remove any doubt in their mind because there are two people that say it works on the Internet. Never mind the complete absence of academic finding to support these theories because there is a guy from the VIP lounge on the VA forum who says it works. I guess that settles it.

http://forum.denverpua.com/images/smilies/banghead.gif

For crying out loud guys put down the freaking KoolAid.

I'd tell you to do the same thing. You obviously have a shitload of walls up that make it impossible to reason with you.

Getting back to the point, is there anyone who thinks that there is any PUA material on the market that is snake oil or is it all legit?

Of course there are horrible products out there... what is your point?

Vision

11-29-2007, 07:21 PM

If a girl doesn't know that you're using hypnosis on her... what is there to disagree with? I'll tell you who's receptive to me... a girl that wants to have sex with me. She'll go along with anything I tell her... but, I wouldn't tell her that I'm going to hypnotize her before I do... that would just be creepy. :rolleyes:

I've used and still use hypnosis out in the field... and there's one thing I have to say about it... it works. The M3 model wasn't studied by scientists in a laboratory but it works too. And most of the shit that has been extensively studied by academic scholars is utter bullshit and doesn't work. That's why pickup is becoming so popular.

I'm not educated in anything academically(not officially anyway) but I do get one thing... results... and that's what matters to me. Personally, I think you should stay away from hypnosis... and pickup too. It doesn't work. You should also make a movie about how it doesn't work. That would be the shit.

HBPornstar

11-29-2007, 07:39 PM

the question is weather or not it works on those who are not willing and have not agreed to go along with it.

You already know the answer is yes.

HBPornstar

azazels_wolf

11-29-2007, 08:04 PM

Pulse:
Love your "banging my head against the fucking wall* icons! Hahaha!

A36DD4ME:
Take a look at this page on Hypnosis in Surgery, complete with multiple medical studies cited:
http://www.institute-shot.com/hypnosis_pain_utility.htm

I myself have seen an amateur video of a dental surgery take place using hypnosis but with:
-no anesthesia
-no pain
-no anxiety
-very little bleeding

If you need professional studies for "proof", the article cites them.

Johnny Soporno

11-30-2007, 02:31 AM

Pulse:
Love your "banging my head against the fucking wall* icons! Hahaha!

Me too - they ARE the proverbial thousand-words...

A36DD4ME:
Take a look at this page on Hypnosis in Surgery, complete with multiple medical studies cited:
http://www.institute-shot.com/hypnosis_pain_utility.htm

I myself have seen an amateur video of a dental surgery take place using hypnosis but with:
-no anesthesia
-no pain
-no anxiety
-very little bleeding

If you need professional studies for "proof", the article cites them.

I have used NLP for self-hypnotic state management and pain suppression for more than 25 years.

I NEVER accept anesthetics when having crowns laid, root-canals done, or fillings replaced - and my dentist is always amazed when I begin snoring while he works. Actually, he tells all the other patients and staff about it every time I go to visit him, because he can't get over it.

I accepted no anesthetics, local or general, while I had my vasectomy surgery.

Pain is a thing of the mind, and can be controlled with the mind... with some effort.

Same goes for fear, and for anger. I haven't lost my temper even once in over 15 years, and you'd best believe there were moments where that required as much metal discipline as having my scrotum pierced, twice, and my vas clamped, cut, and sealed - without moving. ;)

Johnny Soporno
Shootin' Blanks

Johnny Soporno

11-30-2007, 03:21 AM

Are there any accredited colleges that teach the NLP method?

Of course there are. Try using http://www.google.com. You'll find plenty.

Again, I'm not making a claim either way, I'm just posing the questions than a critical thinker asks.

No, you're asking the questions YOU IMAGINE a critical thinker might ask, but in actuality, 'critical thinkers' DO THEIR OWN RESEARCH, rather than presuming a negative result, and communicating it though rhetorical overtones, without anything at all to back it up except invective assumptions.

Here:

http://www.rdlearning.org.uk/courseDetails.asp?ID=37522

http://www.acap.edu.au/ProgramsforProfessionals/NeuroLinguisticProgramming/index.html

http://www.westbrooku.edu/DoctorPhilosophy.htm

http://www.glasgowmet.ac.uk/neurolinguisticprogramming(nlp).aspx

http://www.bbk.ac.uk/study/ce/modules/FFPS057U.html

http://www.nl.edu/courses/courses_epd.cfm

http://www.njcu.edu/CILL/vol6/love.html

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/educol/documents/00003319.htm

Read through those course-descriptions and peer-reviews.

Johnny Soporno
Pedant

BishopDon

12-05-2007, 12:46 PM

there are tons of snake oil sales men in the PU community , do you think david x is out fucking hot women? tyler durden? (theres even quotes in the game he wasnt getting laid) get real.....

I don't know. I don't know DavidX and neither do you. And the book the 'Game' was 1 mans account written 4-5 years back. Tyler was 21 or 22 then, totally different individual now.

Get real