Excuse Master

[Matador]

I get into a discussion with a community guy and he proudly says, "I don't game ugly girls". WTF?

I asked him, what kind of girls do you approach. Turns out, his definition of ugly meant any girl that wasn’t his dream girl.

I find this rather strange. Wouldn’t you like to practice on a girl to an acceptable limit (meaning not causing any real harm to her) so when you’re dream girl comes along you’ll be ready.

I argued my point, that there is value in gaming regular girls. In fact, you’d be surprised how difficult it is to game a girl that is low on our community grading scale. He eventually saw things my way and agreed. However, the more I think about it, it was just an excuse not to be out in the field and approaching. Everybody has their excuses and that was his particular one.

What a great excuse. It justifies inaction and lonely nights. You can absolve all responsibility from yourself and you can go to sleep soundly.

A couple of things come to mind when I think about why some guys get good and others don’t.

1. Intelligence
2. Hard Work
3. Self Awareness

Take one of our instructors Moxie. Moxie has all three traits. He was smart, willing to work for it, and smart enough to know he didn’t have all the answers and had the guts to examine his inner self and take a blunt, hard, look at it.

I was out with Moxie the other night and I turn around he is making out with 2 girls in a three way with another blond standing next to him. Nothing happened with the 2 girls, but he pulled the blond back to the house. I would say that the guy has some of the biggest set of balls when in field. Even though we all feel approach anxiety (it is a natural hard-wired response) he completely understands and controls it. I find him going into almost any set without hesitation or fear.

This permeates throughout the entire pick-up. Come time to bounce…he goes for it…come time to kino escalate…he goes for it…come time to go for a three way make out…he goes for it (and usually gets it…so jealous)…come time to do anything that his emotions are making him feel nervous…he is still in the drivers seat. No excuses period.

He is currently staying with us in Project Miami and can’t tell you how many times he has pulled and closed.



If I analyze this, Moxie has all three characteristics with his approach to becoming a top PUA.

1) Study your chosen proven model or models as if it were a real science…actually be a scientist about it…be objective, be outcome-independent, be creative, be patient..etc.
2) Practice, practice, practice with honest hard work…don’t got out and have a million and one excuses why not to approach in between your sips of liquor.
3) Be honest with your mistakes, sticking points, and guys who you can learn from. Take your ego out of it and be smart enough to know you don’t have all the answers. Be humble enough to learn from guys who are better and who do things that you notice getting results…in short, do not be intolerant.

[dman]

These same people also would say they never would approach guys, even though it is an essential ability being able to gel well with guys for when you are approaching mixed sets (as most are). Even opening up all guy sets are good, means at least a little bit of social proofing, puts you in a good mental state, gets the approaching momentum going, etc... You are meant to the socialable girl who will talk to anybody cool, not just the one or two "perfect girls".

[obie]

Most of the "community" guys I've met in the field are plain old AFCs who know some cool words like "IOI" and "neg" and shit like that. They will find a million and one excuses not to approach girls.

"she's not my type"- when every girl in the place isn't a dudes type I seriously wonder if maybe "his type" involves a large piece of man-meat hanging between "her" legs

"We'd have nothing in common"- how do you know until you go talk to her? Fucking arrogance.

Of course the funniest dudes are the guys that never approach but think that they are somehow great with girls. I know one guy that I've seen in the field at least 5 nights and have never seen him approach, that was telling me he is thinking of putting on his own seminar. He has attended at least 5 bootcamps, so he probably knows enough to put on his own, titled "how to be a socially awkward, weird, creepy nutjob!"

[sting]

[QUOTE=Matador;4601]I get into a discussion with a community guy and he proudly says, "I don't game ugly girls". WTF?

I asked him, what kind of girls do you approach. Turns out, his definition of ugly meant any girl that wasn’t his dream girl.

... Everybody has their excuses and that was his particular one.[QUOTE]


True, true.

I like the simple philosophies. Mehow says, "be social" - makes sense and doesn't need much deep thought to understand. be social, and your socializing skills will improve.
I would speculate that anyone who needs to be talked into accepting something as basic as that... probably just isn't ready to do what has to be done.

Cheers,
Sting

[Matador]

a somewhat accurate concept...i forget who I heard it from...maybe Mystery...but can't remember to give exact credit:

"When you see a girl that you want to approach and you feel your approach anxiety trigger...remember, it is a natural hardwired response...in this moment the battle is not with you and the girl...it is between you and yourself"

On that note, you'd be amazed just how many adventures a good opening skillset will open up for you, even if the rest of your game isn't there yet.

I believe alot of guys who come to my seminars are really cool guys. They have bought into the inaccurate belief that there is something wrong them due to social conditioning. The truth is, they have:

1) Not felt entitled to the blatent IOIs (Indicators of Interest) that girls throw at them and therefore do not see/believe it.
2) Have poor personality conveyance skills that they cannot rely on in these high-energy club environments.
3) Simply do not open and make things happen.
4) Stand there idely, while the girl does the same, and wishes something would happen, all-the-while, both parties want it. Night after night, these potential couples go home alone, wondering why, and backwards-rationalize that there is something wrong with them. After years of this cycle, it can break down anybody.

Some guys come to me after they reach their breaking point when they can no longer stand it. When the pain of living life this way is greater than the momentary swallowing of pride it takes to admit you have a problem communicating with women and that you are going to do something about it. That is why I give 150% percent at my bootcamps. I was there once. I know that it is life or death for some people. The reward of seeing their face when you give them a new lease on life is amazing. I don't what you guys have sold in the past, but if you've ever sold the truth and had the power to change peoples lives...you'll know what I am talking about. The end result is worth the effort.

In short....APPROACH!

(not a plug: for a detailed explanation on approach anxiety...it is in Mystery and Lovedrops book at http://www.venusianarts.com/mmbook)

How many people are finding themselves in new adventures, sexual or not, because of simply approaching, let alone tight game?

[waxlrose]

Yes, just shut it out. Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. The little guy in your head is a mean little sucker, so just see him as that, laugh at him. Stop thinking so much, because that makes it worse. Set small goals; this is why the newbie drill is so important because after walking around saying hi to everyone, you begin to realize that people don't reject you. They can't see all the bad things you've trained yourself to see about yourself. If you're being casually social, and someone reacts strangely to it, it's THEIR problem, not yours. Move on to the next friendly person.

[Maz]

Awesome post Matador to be honest I have found myself doing this a few times. The thing is it eventually becomes a double edged sword. On one hand you're 'saving' yourself for a hot girl but when you see her your AA increases even more because you do not have the momentum you gain from opening lower value girls. I realised I have been doing this at times lately, I thought I had reached a plateau in my game when in fact I have actually regressed, my ego tells me I've opened, hooked and closed hotter girls before so I do not need to bother with the ugly ones. Then as soon as I see a really hot girl I freeze. However, during the day I'll open anyone just to be 'social' I kind of missed the point that I should be doing this at night too.

[Mask]

Great post, Matador. I used to have massive approach anxiety. Now I'm somewhere between 300-500 approaches (best guess) and here's what I've noticed:

- yes, fun happens regardless if you get the girl or not.
- My skillset is steadily improving.
- I can read people better, and have a better intuition about the social dynamics in any particular set/situation.
- I still get AA and not approach all I could/should. Especially when I'm out alone.
- Most of all (and surprising to me): I'm MUCH less intimidated by a woman's beauty. I'd say almost completely unaffected.

[Matador]

I am out the other night with some business bigshot. He wants to see my game. I roll into a six set and open the whole group…standard game, engage whole group, slight neg on target, engage whole group again, befriend 2 males in set work my way back to obstacles…finish befriending obstacles…then get initiation of chat from target…cycle back between A2,A3,C1 for a while, while going kino, isolated to a short distance away…rolled off on major attraction spike from target twice to start chasing (you advanced guys will know what I am talking about). In short, a successful set with a solid number close…bounce was not practical in this case…walked back to my friend and he was blown away.

The target was a Swedish ex-model who works in the marketing side of the fashion industry.

In reality, I would give her a Matador 9…in community terms she would have been a 10+.

Community scale is bullshit to me. Even Mystery tries to convince me that his girls are hotter than they are (which are fucking hot by the way). I always decrement everyone’s number by three points.

Guess what?

I didn’t call her.

Why?

Well, as I talked about excuses in my previous posts, I must say that I succumb to them every once in a while. Sometimes I am not as strong as I would like to be.

This particular excuse is that I am too busy. WTF?

If I am too busy to date model-quality girls who are smart, intelligent, and seem decent, then I’d better be working on winning the noble peace prize or curing cancer. The truth is, I believe in S&R Theory and I know that many activities I do is for sexual access (which is more complex than it sounds), not that I would want to exercise that option with every girl. The hard work that I do every day is for this moment and I have completely missed the point.

I have some cool ideas on Ego that I will post about later. In this case, this false story of being “too busy” was actually an ego protection mechanism. I have conveniently pre-empted any possibly of failure or rejection from the girl in the progression of the sarge.

Sometimes, I feel that when I go out, I play to play the game, not play to win. Remember, we use the game…not vice versa…in truth, we learn all this theory, routines, read hoards of literature from gurus for that end…when I get to point where I relish playing the game more than getting the girl…I think I have slipped back into the matrix of preserving one of my identities as a PUA and once again, completely missed the point.

Don’t get me wrong…I have had weeks of 5+ girls in the span of a week…all cold approaches, but sometimes I get lazy and slack off.

How many people know what I am talking about? How many people get the set, get the girl, number close her…and never call due to some fantastic reason.

In short, keep your eye on the prize and play to win while being outcome independent.

I know this sounds hypocritical...I still think it does, but here is my interpretation of it.

Outcome Independence is just a mental construct to protect our ego and synonymous with "not giving a shit"...how can that be?

If we really "didn't give a shit" would we be there...would we be learning? No. So, when Mystery talks about outcome independence, it means to not get too emotionally invested in the outcome in the moment and cause a distraction to your self awareness of your emotional circuitry while you're playing...when the set is done..I think you should be very cognizant of the outcome and examine reasons as to why it when good or bad, what to do better next time around, and make a distinction that you are not a winner in this particlular "game/bout/contest"...relish on the negative emotions of not winning to provide motivation to win next time and not just dismiss everything into a "i don't give a shit" bucket (how convenient). What I am talking about is that winner mentality...that champion mentality...that killer mentality...play to win gentlemen!

[Nightflex]

You know, there's something I learned from this post today. I too, myself, have this same fucing problem.
My excuse.. english is my second language and I am still learning it, so I think to myself that if I say something (and have said a few things in the past that I overthought about).. I am going to come across as wierd and they would think I am trying to hard. In that last 20 years I have made 2 unsucessfull approaches and to be honest with you, ever since I have joined my AA have gone down by just reading the FR's cuz I am realizing these damn girls are human and they don't just slap you right off the bat. Anywas, the point is that I too make excuses and I think today is the last day(it may take longer) but I will stop doing it.

Another problem with me is that I cant remember any routines and don't know which ones would be good so I haven't memorized anything at all. All I know are the cool words such as "negs" and "IOI's" and stuff. So wondering what do you guy use to help memorize and act out routines and stuff.

So thatz wussup from me.

[tony77]

Great post! I will sarge anything just to get me in a good state although I am too guilty of making excuses. I was out wiht a new wing of mine and all three times he has made excuses mainly to due with the environment and the fact that the group of girls may seem deep in conversation, but I think to myself, so what? If they had teh option of meeting a hot cool guy I think they would be stupid to turn me away! This one bar i was in I noticed a 2 set, the only set there as it was quiet and I wanted him to approach so he would get over his anxiety! He said, "teh atmosphere isn't right, they look like they're having a deep conversation" to which I said, its your reality and they are a guest in your reality. If they wanted to have a quiet chat, they should stay at home" I was going to approach with the JG opener didn't instead opting for a more lame one "do you know any good bars" My wing joined in and I used a story, some dhv and as i was leaving the one talking to me was still trying to talk to me as I was looking non verbally getting ready to leave.

I managed to get him to open a 3 set saturday night even though I didn't think it was the best opener to use but atleast it got him opening. Something I don't like is when guys have to drink in order to sarge. He said it was to loosen up a little but you cna do that with NLP and other pre sarge rituals!

[dman]

Another problem with me is that I cant remember any routines and don't know which ones would be good so I haven't memorized anything at all. All I know are the cool words such as "negs" and "IOI's" and stuff. So wondering what do you guy use to help memorize and act out routines and stuff.How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Here do this, pick out: two openers that you like, along with a DHV story that is applicable to yourself. Then this friday and saturday night go out and approach as many girls was you can. Open them with one of the two openers, shift to tell the DHV and then carry on from there. Stack and say the other opener that you didn't use on that particular set if you are running out of something to say, or even if you are realling struggling to keep the conversation flowing just as "it was a pleasure to meet you and I'll see you around later" and walk away. Doesn't matter too much walking away after you have opened at the moment, because right now you need to focus on being able to open.

After a couple of nights of this (or more) you should have internalised those two openers and the DHV, then you can add a couple more pieces to your range of knowledge. And so on and so on.....

[sting]

I know this sounds hypocritical...I still think it does, but here is my interpretation of it.

Outcome Independence is just a mental construct to protect our ego and synonymous with "not giving a shit"...how can that be?

If we really "didn't give a shit" would we be there...would we be learning? No

I posted this awhile ago on the same thing - enjoy.

i want to clarify something i see quite often on the boards here.

"not giving a shit".... everyone gives a shit how they are thought of. the people who say "i don't give a shit" do so BECAUSE they KNOW that they come of well.
occasionally, this gets twisted by people who don't come of well too often into a overly macho, denial type mechanism, "i don't care what anyone thinks of me"

Does that make sense?

ever heard someone say, "i don't care what you think of me"? a person who really didn't care WOULDN'T say that, because its rude, and why be rude over something you don't care about?


in a nutshell - Not Giving A Shit, as a by-product of good social skills that ensure you'll be well liked, is a positive thing.
NGaS, as a defensive mechanism for poor social skills that makes it likely you don't make much of an impression or a bad one, is not such a positive thing.

hope thats helpful,
Sting

[Crash]

very interesting thread here

i also think that not giving a shit is a two edged sword. and true outcome independence is a dilemma.

the fallacy of not giving a shit is that you can fuck up at any point cause you dont give a shit. like always saying what you think about, even if it's in social violation.

i wonder if you can ever truly get those two concepts (outcome independence and playing to win) into harmony.

it's an ongoing battle between two school of thoughts that can be applied to almost everything in life and business - process oriented thinking vs goal oriented thinking

i'm still not sure which one i prefer. on the one hand i want to have my goals, but on the other hand i work better when my motivation lies in the now, in trying to make the best out of the current situation.
i've personally noticed that in retrospect by making the best out of the now i've surpassed goals i never would have achieved had i made them my goals in the first place.

by clearly stating a goal you make yourself vulnerable to possible defeat and discouragement should you miss that goal. you put yourself on the line. you play to win, you're outcome dependent.

if you just play for the process you might achieve a goal, but you're directionless and you don't care about where you're going, what you're doing. you're experimenting and you might even dehumanize the girls you're gaming. you're not judged by your expectations, you can't get demotivated because you didn't have to meet any goals.

if anyone has a deeper insight into this topic i'd be happy if he could share some knowledge and possibly some solutions.

[TruePlayer]

I can see not gaming a girl you would not want to f-close:

If you think that you could pull the girl but you would not want to, such that you will throw her back (because she is an UG, say) then why game her at all? IMO, that is just cruel, and playing with her feelings.

I guess if you must game her to refine your skills (or more likely prove something to yourself) at least have a way to gracefully eject that leaves her better than you found her.

[Adamm]

I agree that the guy Matador spoke to is an "excuser." However, one thing, and perhaps this applies to me only, I tend to get potentially get bogged down if I view going out and socializing as "work."

I figure I work long enough during the week as it is, so it puts more mental pressure on me if I see my leisure time as a time for more "hard work." I prefer to see going out as a time of excitement, drinking, chilling out and meeting some fine women. This is the type of frame I want to achieve during the weekend.

As far as that dude, perhaps encouraging him, or others like him, to view the process as one of becoming more social, rather than of keeping a scorecard, that would take the pressure off his shoulders and help to reframe all interactions in a positive way, whether it's with hotties or not.

Adamm

[Evangelo]

I love how for many guys, AFCs, wannabe PUAs, any many others, feel that getting someone attracted to you is somehow "wrong" or "exploitative". It's exactly the opposite.

When I first started sarging for serious about a year ago or so, I was still under the impression that bragging rights had everything to do with getting go. So if I could pull a HB10, I'd be a master. Then I realized, very quickly, that not only could I not do that if I tried, but I would be wasting valuable time making good friends and learning the game when I was sarging girls that were less attractive on the HB scale.

So then I started to sarge UG's, 5's, 6's, and now 7's. My best, without hesitation, is an f-close on a 7, and I'm proud of that, but just as proud as I am of my blow outs from an UG months before. It's all part of the process. And as much as I enjoyed it, they enjoyed it. People love life regardless.

The other great insight I found is that when someone is attracted to you, UG, HB, gay guy or whatever, you are very likely to have that person help you out in the field as a pivot, or become a valuable friend. The more "game" I have, the more successful I am socially, and being attractive, I believe, is more than saying "I can fuck good looking girls."

Best,
Evangelo

[Diebold]

All women have a beauty inside of them, just because you don't want to fuck them (or wouldn't fuck them with a stolen dick) doesn't mean there isn't something inside that would allow you to connect to them on a friendly level to help improve your game.

Or, another way to put it, fat chicks try harder. :p

[obie]

As a sleight aside to the direction this conversation is taking, I'd like to point out one resource I've used that can dramatically help with AA.

One is EFT/Tapping. Check it out at emofree.com or tapping.com After six weeks of tapping (5 minutes per day) my AA is so reduced as to be not noticeable. It wasn;t bad before, but I had to fight through it a lot. On a usual night it would be in the 5-7 range on a scale of 1-10. Now if it's a BAD night it gets up to a 3. The difference is nothing short of amazing. Some nights I'm tired or whatever and I go out and on the way I think "man tonight is gonna be tough" or whatever, but I get into the venue and it's like a hot knife through butter. It works so well that even after using it for a while I am still surprised by it. It can take a while, but a month should be enough time to see some results. I felt a difference after two days. I really can't reccomend this highly enough.

Don't tell me this stuff about AA being hard-wired. Do two rounds of tapping per day (total time 5 minutes!) for a month and then come tell me that AA is hard wired and can't be affected.

So far no one that I've told about this has tried it, (that I know of) and I find this surprising and disturbing. I am here to tell you that in five minutes a day for thirty days your AA will be reduced dramatically.

Try it yourself and find out.

[Deft9]

Matador references this "article" in his AA article. It could probably be moved to the "articles" section.

[G-Child]

One of the things I have learned to help with poker was the idea of outcome independence and it definietly applies to pickup. Poker is a game of making the best decisions every time. But because there is so much luck involved, you could do almost everything right, and still lose. So in order to keep the pain of the inevitable losses from screwing up your game, we distance ourselves from the results, secure in the knowledge that solid game will net wins over time. A player still has to analyze his game and try to make it the best he can be, but by being overly focused on results, we take losses too hard when they are simply a product luck. Getting mad at something that is bound to happen is wasted energy that could be spent on improving ones game. If you go into a set with the intention of nailing that hot little blonde number, and you find out she has a serious boyfriend, then you miss out on banging her roomate, or her boyfriends sister, or simply having a good time and making a friend. I know that sometimes I feel a little weird practicing game on women I have no interest in sexually, but who knows what can happen if you don't force certain outcomes? Maybe you'll end up being really good friends and she will be a great pivot for you. Who knows? But by becoming outcome dependent, you become too goal oriented and start get down on yourself for not achieving the certain tasks. Its not this particular set that's important, it the overall improvement of your game that matters. The more skills you can integrate and the better you become at pickup, the more success you'll achieve. Stay focused on the process and women will come. Analyze every sarge and every set to get better but when that's over, forget about them. Take the lessons with you but not the negative feelings. Strive for perfection, but don't let the fact that things didn't go exactly perfect sway you from doing better in every set. Its very easy to get down on ourselves and to have doubt and percieved failure keep us from achieving greatness in our pursuits. But if we keep ourselves focused on self improvement and don't associate mistakes and growing pains as an inherent deficiency within ourselves, then we can improve without self defeating prophecies and without imparting negative thoughts upon ourselves. Pickup is hard enough without holding onto past mistakes and pouring over them until our confidence is undermined. So make sure that you learn from your mistakes then move on. There is always another hand and there is always another set. Good luck and sarge on.

[blade18rivers]

Man, this thread really hit me in the gut!

Yeah, I feel for you brother Matador...I guess I'm in this stage in my game as well. Many times I find myself gaming just because of the game and not to close the deal!

That's a very big slap in my face. Thanks for waking me up again!

Peace!

Blade Rivers

[Cass]

funnily enough I was discussing this earlier.. exactly!

[Fortunehooks]

G-child that post is exactly how I am feeling now, a bit self defeated in the confidence area, but I know its going to past because I am going out and making it happen.