A question for the experts... or anyone--Not Bullshit!

[obie]

I've been trying to understand this for a while, but nobody has yet been able to explain this to me so I can understand it.

The question has to do with everyone's favorite phase, A2.

MM theory tells us that in order to have the most solid A2 on hot women, A2, needs to incorporate two distinct elements: DHV and disqualification. Of course, sometimes (typically with less hot girls) just DHV is enough, and other times just disqualification can be enough of a DHV in itself to get the girl wanting to qualify so we can intiate A3. However, for the most solid A2 game, both elements are needed: DHV is what generates her interest in us, while the disqualification is 1) needed to avoid "blowout" auto-pilot responses and 2) gives her additonal motivation to qualify herself. There is also one additional constraint here, the two elements need to work together, so DHV should not convey interest to the target, so as not to undercut the "disqualification" aspect of A2. This is why "bragging" doesn;t work in A2: in addition to being socially frowned upon, it telegraphs interest in the target.

MM theory gives us these two components, and MM practitioners have supplied us with sets of tools to accomplish both of these aims. The classic tools which Mystery seems to advocate most from what I have seen are

DHV: Intersting or unusual stories or facts that contain embedded attraction triggers (like say the stripper stalker story or ESP routine)

Disqualification: The main tool here is a disqualifying statement, often a teasing insult or c/f one-liner, which is said in a way that is just playful enough to not be insulting e.g. "How do you roll with this girl? jeez, where's her 'off' button?"

So a typical interaction using these A tools would involve the player telling some kind of interesting or emotional story while occasionally throwing in some kind of disqualifying statement at the target.

Of course, there is no dogma which says that these are the only two tools possible, and other MM-derivative models offer other tools to accomplish the goals of A2. Specifically one model of A2 uses the tools that Mystery advocates for disqualification as tools for DHV.

Specifically, by using the cocky funny one-liner and really amping up the playfulness you push women through all kinds of emotional states and can generate attraction. This would be "banter" or "cocky-funny" as an attract tool, where a typical interaction would consist of a lot of high-energy, playful teasing back and forth, playful kino, push-pull etc.

My first, and more important, question about using these kinds of things as DHV is whether these super playful things actually give off interest... when you start teasing girls, telling them they are trouble, and acting surprised that they haven't tried to grab your ass, do they assume that you are interested in them sexually?

Seems to me that when you do this stuff, you are actually flirting competently, and so this does, in fact give off interest. (Of course, the typical guy is a terrible flirter, i.e. gives no emotional stimulation to women at all, so this may explain why this is enough for to build attraction in some women, but if it does give off interest then it may not be enough for uber hotties.)

The other question is, given that you are using the main "standard" disqualification tool as the main attract tool, what now do you use as the disqualification tool?

I remember in the famous "fish has to swim" post TD talked about getting girls to chase by doing takeaways timed to coincide with BT spikes. In a way, he is addresing this question: the takeaways are what conveys the "disinterest" part when you DHV with banter.

Since I have a tendency to run muy-playful A2 game, any insights would be very helpful...

[Affection]

Hey,

1) Not if you're good at it.

2) A disqualifier used as a DHV is still also a disqualifier.

Later,

~~Affection

[Lovedrop]

when you start teasing girls, telling them they are trouble, and acting surprised that they haven't tried to grab your ass, do they assume that you are interested in them sexually?

Yes this is flirting and will be interpreted as compentent interest. This is more what I would call buying temperature game.

Try also playing with IODs that aren't flirty, but that seem to legitimately - albeit a bit inadvertantly - convey disinterest.

Do you have the Venusian Arts Handbook? (The old MM book that will soon be available in bookstores). Check out the section on IODs that girls do - then try using those yourself.

Many PUAs make the mistake of using IOIs and IODs that are too abrupt and intense. Contrast a backturn, which is quite harsh, with this move:

Over the course of 4 to 5 seconds, lean your head back (like you are moving it away from the target) about 3 inches, while closing your lips. Maintain eye contact but without saying anything.
If the target does not re-initiate conversation, feel free to continue talking at this point. People FEEL IODs like this because they come off real.

Also try using soft negs such as calling the target a knucklehead. Mystery uses very disarming negs, that convey a frame of high value without appearing to be flirting with the target.

Mystery coined the term "Neg" from a mathematical perspective. "Negative hit on her" instead of "hit on her" - unlike flirting, negs are meant to convey to her a genuine belief that you are not trying to pick her up.

[DarkPrince]

Sweet a A2 Post!
I sorta know what your talking about. I am aways jumbling through A2, I do the material, but for some reason its not triggering anything for me. Its weird. Ive Tried, Disqulifying, Than DHV, and vice versa, but I havnt been able to hit and or spark any attraction out of anyone, Right now im even just tryign to see if i can get her to inititate Kino, And still nothing. Honestly after 5 months of practicing this, I dont know what im doing wrong now. and yes, Ive been working on my body language, eyecontact. Also one important thing ive done is ever set is for the people to know that my boys come before them so.. anyways.

Any Ideas?

thanks
-Prince

p.s. Sorry obie for posting in your thred but I didnt wanna waste another thred up, and this one seemes much more attiquit to the situation.

[obie]

Affection,

1) Please elaborate
2) If 1 is true, then I can see it.

Good AMOGing btw

LD,

Thanks for posting. I'll try the more "natural" disqualifiers and see what kind of effect that has. From what I little I know of your style, it seems like you also use a "BT" style...



I sorta know what your talking about. I am aways jumbling through A2, I do the material, but for some reason its not triggering anything for me.

How do you know? Do you TEST for attraction?

I'll forgive you for trying to hijack my thread :p

[Lovedrop]

It's true that I use BT when appropriate. But it is only a tool, not a "style" of my entire game. I will experiment with vastly different types of game depending on what aspects I am trying to improve.

[crypticfox]

Learning solid A2 game is like swinging at a golf ball blindfolded, IMHO, especially if you haven't been to a bootcamp (like myself). You don't really know what you're swinging at, but at each little step within A2, if you make contact with the ball, you'll feel it.

Each time I make contact with a ball, so to speak, in A2, my brain files away that small instance of success. Over time, I'm starting to get a clearer picture of what ideal A2 behavior should look like by piecing together many small successes.

[Superfreak]

Like I have posted in other threads I do not do the 123 ABC thing but it sounds to me like you need to use more Push / Pull into your Attraction efforts so bare with me and I will post some examples of some great caned material you can adapt to this. Thats the # 1 thing I see when guys seem to open great and then the interaction seems to just fizzle out.

Basically depending on my goals what I do is open then move to attraction using a DHV, then I build on that attraction, been a long time since I read VA handbook but I assume building the attraction is what you call A2.

“You know, you’re kinda cute. I think you’d make a nice girlfriend. WAIT, can you cook? I need a woman who can cook! Oh, you can? Great! I’m
impressed. BUT what kind of food do you cook? Oh, Thai? I’m not sure I like Thai. What else can you cook? Italian? Now we’re talking! I like you already! BUT can you cook GOOD Italian food is the question.”

"You're my new girlfriend." (pause) "No, I changed my mind, we're broken up." (why) "You're too nice for me...look at you, you're already IN LOVE with me...you don't even know me!" (OMG hahahaha, No I'm not!) "Just look at your body language, man...laughing at all my dumb jokes, falling in love..."

Another example, that’s more serious:

“Oh, you have a Masters degree in ______? Great, I LOVE smart women! They’re fun to be around. But are you TOO intellectual? I’m not crazy about women who are too intellectual, they’re not as fun. But I find the field of ______ very interesting, so it would be fun to get to know you I’m sure.”

A process like this gets her thinking “Oh, a compliment…I’ve got him! Ummm..maybe not. Oh wait, he DOES like me. Aww no that’s not good enough for him. So does this guy like me or not?”

You can also use your body language for push-pull purposes. Communicate interest one minute by leaning forward, showing enthusiasm, etc, then show indifference the next minute by leaning back, crossing your arms, looking bored, turning your body away from her, etc.
Push/pull is a fine art that needs to be used with caution. Watch your target’s reaction and make sure you’re not going too far. She should be a little frustrated by your ambiguous behavior (this frustration builds sexual tension), but if she’s showing anger you’re probably pushing it too far.

BREAKING RAPPORT: Show that you CAN connect with her on some topic, and when she gets into it, change the topic.
GOOD COP/BAD COP: Being mean or condescending but then following it up immediately with a nice estimation. Gets her seeking validation. “You’re so X. You know, I usually don’t get involved with women who are X, but you have a great way of looking at the world so it’s cool, we can hang out.”

INTENTIONAL UNDERMINING: “You have SUCH a gorgeous smile.” (Thank you). “Actually I know four other people who have really nice smiles, so I’m going to call you number 5.”

UNDERMINING RAPPORT: Once rapport is established, say something like “You and I are too alike, we’d never be able to hang out together”.
If she wants to wear your jacket/hat/etc: “You have to be very special to wear this hat” Give it to her for a 30-second trial period, then pull it away and make her re-earn it. “Time’s up!”

The above came from an ebook I found where some guy took the time to put all the canned info together he could find, the book has no author listed that I could find and it said feel free to use any of this info how ever you want so I am in the works of organizing it all into my current book as I love the fact it gives examples of dialog for almost every method. I do plan on giving credit for the openers to the originators when possible in my book.

Anyways thats some examples of the canned material and by no means definitive, as there as tons of methods or ways to build on attraction just hope this helps you a bit.

Like I said though if you are doing great on the opening and then the interaction starts to go down hill before you can get into comfort then IMHO 70% of the time the interaction was too one sided, So if you use more push / pull methods you will start to increase your results.

And yes like LD said it does not have to be all verbal

[obie]

"You're my new girlfriend." (pause) "No, I changed my mind, we're broken up." (why) "You're too nice for me...look at you, you're already IN LOVE with me...you don't even know me!" (OMG hahahaha, No I'm not!) "Just look at your body language, man...laughing at all my dumb jokes, falling in love..."


Hey dude, I like Swinggcat's stuff too, and your response goes to the heart of my question actually.

When you say this shit, you're saying it playfully. When you say "you're my new girlfriend" it's obvious you're kidding, but it's also obvious you're kidding when you "break up," so it's not actually a REAL disqualifier. The whole interaction is "playing" which is just the same as flirting... so when you say this, the girl understands that you are actually hitting on her, albeit in a very fun, unusual, emotionally stimulating way.

What LD is suggesting, and is something that seems like it would be easy, but is actually not so easy to do, is to integrate legitimate-looking IODs into your interaction. Maybe looking around, or negative body language or whatever, like the frame is you're a super fun, social guy who can fuck around and flirt or whatever, but at the same time, you might have better palces to be...

[Superfreak]

exactly right and I agree with TD on that the way I do it is to say one thing but have your body say another, for example pointing your feet away from the target, breaking eye contact etc... to send a mixed signal. If she gives you an answer or response that you do not like you turn your feet away from the target for example this sends a mixed signal like you are about to leave because she is not interesting enough etc...

Also in the quoted text it depends on your frame and delivery as the DQ is that she is too much of a nice girl.

90% of the game is more than what is said.

You can also do an exaggerated push away. Basically you act like you are pushing her away from you while straightening out your arm. I never actually push them its a soft touch but visually it comes off as a shove.

But no matter what you use physically or verbally it still comes down to push / pull or cat string theory.

You are trying to build some tension so that she also has to participate and invest into the interaction. Other wise it is a one sided interaction so you come off as hitting on her.

Flirting though is a two way action, so if she is also flirting back it does not matter if you show some signs of attraction.

Also like is said I do not use the 123 ABC method as I break it into distinct Phase shifts. In my method each phase is a shift is a change in my frame.

I think VA method does this too its just the comparison between driving a stick and driving an automatic. So with that said when done correctly VA would be more fluid as the steps progress. The thing is in till you get the calibration just right you can not sense when the seduction is escalating. That is why I use phase shifting as each gear is a distinct shift in frame.

http://lulu.com/superfrk31 - link to my current list of products

[DarkPrince]

lol obie, I get no A2 to test.. and whn i do its so slight it cant be worked with

[spearhead21]

I found this thread and I thought I should bump it so people can read it (specially LD's response).

I think this is MAJORLY important and everyone should read it, and I hope this will be covered in the new book.

I think most guys don't really convey the disinterest they try to convey (because they tease a lot and think that is disinterest instead of flirting/BT spiking).

Or they don't pump any BT at all (which is not a mistake), but they come off too neggy and COLD, which is not optimal.

What I do nowadays for the "attract phase", which lasts about 1-3 minutes is to have a warm charismatic vibe about me, pump BT, kino a lot and also throw legitimate inadvertant-looking non-verbal IODs, like bodyrocking.

For me it is the quickest way to build hard attraction.

From there I continue cycling attraction with qualification and comfort.