You don't suck at PU, you suck at Life!

[Sovereign]

We banter back and forth about kino and stages of attraction, we debate routines and attempt to postulate theories about isolation. We give advice on how to @, #, K, F close, and some even go the extra mile and talk about how one can keep the target interested and turn her into an mLTR.

The community offers so many damn methods before you finish one ebook, the next version comes out. Find yourself buried in MM, VA, RSD, GWM», DYD», Juggler», and every other guru out there with some inspired knowledge on how to finally crack the code on women. All the while, saying that YOU should be the prize, and not realizing that by inventing entire methods simply to get a female interested in you makes THEM the prize.

But let's put all that aside for a second and consider this. Why is it that with all these resources, all these methods and forums and chat rooms, etc. That a majority of people that come into this community still fail?

Now I wouldn't go as far to call many of the guru's a genius, but come on many of them are pretty spot on! So why the hell aren't people getting it?? Or perhaps, it is us that is not getting it, perhaps it is those who steer this community that is at fault.

Further consider this. Most people entering this community have experienced a great deal of social rejection previously. Now there was a reason they were rejected to begin with, and then the rejection itself has caused major emotional issues as well. Do we ever address them??

When your confidence is based on the validation of others and not true inner confidence, do you really think knowing that A1-A3 should get you easily into comfort will help??

When you go around acting like you are the prize and yet you do nothing to truly improve your life, do you really think people will not see through it??

Learning the art of seduction» is a social skill, but if you suck socially it is NOT going to work!!!!! Why can people not grasp this? Instead we tell them to get back into the field more, keep at it!! Yeah....go out and get blown out by a few more HB10's, that will help your already nonexistent confidence. Un huh.

And if you think your 90 page essay's on inner game is solving the problem, think again Plato. Your philosophical rants aren't doing the trick either.

These guys needs clear and concise ways to help them become better at LIFE, before learning these skills. Take an hour a day even, read a fucking book, learn a new skill whether it is cooking, a language and instrument, whatever.

Learn music, literature, art. Learn what women love and what men love to talk about. Observe people more, watch what socially successful men and women do in social environment and take note of it.

But do not just assume that this community is a magic pill that will solve the mommy issues you can't seem to leave in the past. Got picked last in gym and you still wake up in a cold sweat because of it? Well guess what? You probably aren't ready to open a mixed 5-set, are you?

Master Life, Master PU. Or do you know of someone who is successful in all aspects of his life, great socially, lots of friends, good job, charismatic but he just can't seem to attract women?? No, you don't.

Ok, this philosophical rant is done.

With love, as always

[crypticfox]

Or do you know of someone who is successful in all aspects of his life, great socially, lots of friends, good job, charismatic but he just can't seem to attract women?? No, you don't.

You had me until this statement.

I did a quick inventory of myself and found that I am successful in most areas of my life. I am a successful drum and bass DJ and producer. I have a not-overly-extravagant, but solid IT job at a major corporation which I enjoy very much (I actually look forward to going to work, how many people can say that?). I have years experience in radio, and have a great, dominating voice. I have a loving family, who I am quite close with. I can't walk into a club in Dayton, Cincinnati or Columbus, Ohio without being recognized, sometimes by people I don't even know.

And yet, after 7 months in the game I still have little to no success. As recently as last night I got blown the fuck out.

I believe that a boy reaches a moment early in his social life where he must make a decision. His options are to be liked by all or loved by a few. Those of us that were afraid to not be liked made the decision to risk nothing and gurantee acceptance. We chose the role of the beta male. And now, here we are trying to correct a decision that we made twenty some odd years ago.

Does this mean that we suck at life? I don't necessarily think so. It simply means that we chose a safer path, only later to realize that there was a cost we weren't willing to pay. I for one don't expect changing my most fundamental behaviors to be easy, but at least the process allows me to get out there a live a little.

Do I get blown the fuck out all the time? Yes I do. But for the first time since I made that social decision years ago, I don't feel helpless. I feel in control of my destiny.

Ya dig?

[Sovereign]

First realize that you are an exception here, not the rule. What you say about being the beta male is important though, because in essence you still haven't mastered life. You haven't brought yourself to the situation, you just enter into it and hope you are rejected.

You haven't dominated life, you are simply living it, albeit, living it well, but that is not what I mean by mastering life.

[Yoda]

I was never really that bad myself, just wanted to be better.

Seduction is direction.

[Sovereign]

"Ok, this philosophical rant is done. "

but a self-admitted one.

I believe the point is missed here, the subject heading is meant to put you on the defensive, which it did.

The answers to this thread imply that everyone feels the need to qualify themselves, "No, not me! I am not like that."

Which isn't the point. The point is, most of the community IS, and this community is at fault for not addressing it.

[crypticfox]

So address it.

Edit: I was thinking, perhaps as an excercize we should go out and pick a couple fights. Try to start shit with people. Get some random people not liking us. Show ourselves that the world doesn't collapse on itself if somebody doesn't like us.

The most uncomfortable feeling I have experienced in my life is when I know I have an unresolved argument or back in my highschool days, somebody 'looking for me.' Knowing that there was conflict in my future was terrifying to me. Fear of conflict is the most basic root of the problem. Is it possible that in order to be loved, one must accept being hated?

[Sovereign]

Enter the chat room, and sites like Harlequin has up, and Maverick have up and you will see that there is a large group that are doing exactly that.....addressing it.

[gamble]

you think you could post about soul closing? My buddy is asking about it and I can't explain it as well as you.

[Xander]

A worthwhile post... however, you apparently haven't heard of David Deangelo. A lot of his stuff focuses on become the man that attracts women. Things like learning how to cook, traveling, etc. I recommend his 77 laws of attracting women. It's short on routines and long on the kind of things you talk about.

[Enimos]

You had a great point, but wrote a lot of bullshit.
An interesting, exciting, life and identity are VERY important. They ARE actually the MOST important.

But PU is something that actually, oftenly brings you to live this life. It's oftenly THE thing which opens your eyes. Which shows you the reality. Which makes you redefine your preferences and values in life.

It is also BS that inner game programs won't give you success. They oftenly show you reality from a point of view which you couldn't see earlier from - if you seriously embrace those guiding beliefs (and thats how I like to call inner game - cause "Inner Game" just SO doesn't define what it stands for). I can actually say for myself that after being exposed to mystery's ebook it just chaged my LIFE - not only the girls thing, but my WHOLE LIFE. I was given confidence, a new look on reality, and an immense belief in myself.

"Or do you know of someone who is successful in all aspects of his life, great socially, lots of friends, good job, charismatic but he just can't seem to attract women?? No, you don't."

Yes I do. Lot's of those guys. Guys that can perform in front of hundreds of people but have fear approaching a girl. They only succeed with girls that approach THEM, but even that doesn't always happen. I talk about DJ's, rockstars, actors. They may have more success than the other average guys but they don't have all they can have - and that's where comes PU (I wouldn't call it even pickup I would call it self improvement, cause that is where it eventually leads you - to a new way of looking on life).

[sting]

hey guys,
for those of you coming across Sovereign for the first time - this is just the way he speaks (like Jlaix can come across blunt). don't take offense at his tone, and try to judge what he has to say on its own weight.

Sovereign
the lifestyle vs game debate is one that always keeps re-surfacing.
you can't not have a lifestyle (unless your six feet under)
you can't not have game (unless your in solitary confinement for life or six feet under)

so the two 'move' - whether you want them to or not.
for the purpose of improving game - i always say focus on game. obviously that doesn't mean "stop bathing, going to work and brushing your teeth".

focus on socializing and your socializing abilities will get better. simple - but thats about all there is to that.

cheers,
Sting

[Sovereign]

Thanks Sting, glad to see someone looks past the tone and at the content.

I was being negative, and doing so on purpose here.

I find some of the replies amusing. You really think I am saying, "Go learn piano, that will help you get the SHB at the bar!" LOL. Ummm, no.

What I am saying is to add value to YOUR life. Not to get women, not to impress anyone, but because you actually care about YOURSELF.

Learning new things, is just a part of adding value to your life. Think about a common question in this community, which is, "Hey do you have any DHV stories??"

Don't you see the problem with that? The inherent error here? Your life should be one big DHV story. And to try learning the social skill of PU, while not caring enough to add value to your own life, is going to end in failure.

And Xander, yeah I know DD, who doesn't, his theory on cocky funny is one of the worst things to come to this community. Tell you what, I will praise DD the day someone shows me an actual field report of him. Does he ever leave the house?? Just curious.

[sting]

Thanks Sting, glad to see someone looks past the tone and at the content.


I wouldn't want to miss something of value if its there... and if your looking to spread the message (from your point of view), the tone you use can make or break it.:)
this is debatable. wouldn't be remotely surprised if this post hadn't got a single reply if you'd been all nice about it.


i don't see the content of this thread as a debate that has to be won or lost. we can just exchange viewpoints/perspectives on "game vs lifestyle" ... whatever anyone thinks is cool.

IMO, most people live normal lives - thats why its called normal. and most aren't unhappy about it.
9 to 5, come home, watch TV, order take out, listen to music... and have a desire to PU a girl or two when your out at the bar once in awhile or supermarket for groceries.
i'm a big fan of taking what you've got going on and building simple social skills. A guru who tries to change a guys life.... is failing his duties. he can suggest it, but if thats what he's depending on to make a change, somethings off.

If a guy CHOOSES to live a livlier life - great!
If he doesn't, improving game can make up for the slack (obviously, social skills being equal, a more interesting life makes for a more attractive conversationalist)
as Juggler is quoted as saying, "you can use your best routines, i'm more interesting reading off my grocery list" (from another one of the threads on this forum).
Pure game, i.e social skills can be enough. and lifestyle is a personal enough thing that each and every person should decide for themselves about it.

Cheers,
Sting

[Spiritual]

I was given confidence, a new look on reality, and an immense belief in myself.
.

Enimos, Reframe this entire thought. No one can GIVE you your confidence. No one can GIVE you your immense belief in yourself. VAH may have provided a great new point of view for you, as it did for me, but it did not GIVE you your new life. You felt that way because you were searching for it, VAH may have helped you find it, but only in yourself, where it was already existing..

The reality is that YOU made the decision to step up and make that change for yourself. YOU gave yourself this confidence. It's all about you man :)




Sovereign's words are intended for those who are not balancing their lives. Those that from the moment they discovered this community, they stopped working on 'themselves' and started working on pick-up, those that from that moment stopped depending on themselves to succeed with women and started depending on 'Best Friends Tests' and other mens' DHV stories.

All this stuff is a tool, use it as a tool, don't use it as your life... Your life is too great for that.

[Q-Pid]

Enter the chat room, and sites like Harlequin has up, and Maverick have up and you will see that there is a large group that are doing exactly that.....addressing it.

On the money as always Sov. You were reaction seeking but I think it got the message accross all the same. Glad to see someone here who is on the level. I think people are starting to realise that PUA isn't about women, but about men. It's about improving your life to the point whereby you can pickup chicks. Or at least improving it to the point whereby picking up chicks is no longer the focus...simply one of the many things you do on a daily basis.

Don't worry about the responses here. Too often people look at the author and not the message. As if you being a (self admitted) hypocrit removes any validity the message has. Silly people.

Now please excuse me while I go and give advice to a guy regarding women on something i've never done. I dunno if it'll work but I read it online so it's GOSPEL! At least i'll be validated by my fellow keyboard jockeys! THEN I CAN TYPE IN CAPS AND SAY HOW NOTHING IS GONNA STOP ME YEEEAH!

;)

[Syren]

Sov, you know we love ya at TMS. I've fought this battle many times. Its between those who believe in the dogma and canon of PU, and those who have been there and moved past it. Ask Tyler, Ask Mystery, Ask Style, ask anyone who has achieved a level of mastery and they will tell you its more than the dogma, much much more.

[Enimos]

Enimos, Reframe this entire thought. No one can GIVE you your confidence. No one can GIVE you your immense belief in yourself. VAH may have provided a great new point of view for you, as it did for me, but it did not GIVE you your new life. You felt that way because you were searching for it, VAH may have helped you find it, but only in yourself, where it was already existing..

The reality is that YOU made the decision to step up and make that change for yourself. YOU gave yourself this confidence. It's all about you man :)




Sovereign's words are intended for those who are not balancing their lives. Those that from the moment they discovered this community, they stopped working on 'themselves' and started working on pick-up, those that from that moment stopped depending on themselves to succeed with women and started depending on 'Best Friends Tests' and other mens' DHV stories.

All this stuff is a tool, use it as a tool, don't use it as your life... Your life is too great for that.

Golden words man! :D

[Mild_Seven]

So address it.

Edit: I was thinking, perhaps as an excercize we should go out and pick a couple fights. Try to start shit with people. Get some random people not liking us. Show ourselves that the world doesn't collapse on itself if somebody doesn't like us.

The most uncomfortable feeling I have experienced in my life is when I know I have an unresolved argument or back in my highschool days, somebody 'looking for me.' Knowing that there was conflict in my future was terrifying to me. Fear of conflict is the most basic root of the problem. Is it possible that in order to be loved, one must accept being hated?

That's the worst idea I've ever heard. If you have some issues within yourself to work out, don't take it out on other people who are going about their business. Not fearing conflict means being confident in your ability to stand up for yourself, not in your ability to start shit for no reason.

I'm a pretty big guy, and I have 2 rules about fighting:

1) I don't start fights, ever.

2) I don't lose fights, ever.

How about you learn a disciplined martial art instead? That might help you deal with the fears you have while being something 100% positive that you can feel proud of. Let's say you get a brown belt in karate, that's an awesome DHV, to others but also to yourself (I think that's Sovereign's point, that demonstrating value to ourselves is most important). What kind of a DHV is starting a bar fight?

**************************

I like Sovereign's post. I didn't take it as negative. The game is just one aspect of my life and I see it as the net result of all my other efforts. I work out because I love it, and naturally that helps my game, both through appearance and confidence. I travel because I love it, and that gives me the kind of adaptability I need in dealing with new social situations (both pickup and non-pickup). I study languages because I love it, and that massively increases the number of women I can interact with. I'm a teacher because that's my job, but that helps my verbal skills and my ability to lead a conversation and direct group dynamics.

Learning the M3 model and a bunch of routines doesn't take that much effort. Adopting the kind of exciting life you want, AND calibrating your game is what takes all of your effort.

[TruePlayer]

We banter back and forth about kino and stages of attraction...

Blah, blah, blah...

Dude the game is supposed to be FUN so just lighten up and enjoy it.

Also, why rant if you have nothing original to say?

[crypticfox]

How about you learn a disciplined martial art instead? That might help you deal with the fears you have while being something 100% positive that you can feel proud of. Let's say you get a brown belt in karate, that's an awesome DHV, to others but also to yourself (I think that's Sovereign's point, that demonstrating value to ourselves is most important). What kind of a DHV is starting a bar fight?

I did martial arts for a few years. Meh. It was alright. It just wasn't me. I did Kali for two years and Tang Lang Chuan style kung fu for two years. It never really gave me any confidence... I never understood that whole martial arts will give you confidence thing. In all honesty it kind of made me feel silly. Most of the people I trained with over four years... well calling them socially inept would be a compliment.

I was mostly venting in my previous post about some built up frustrations. Oddly enough, after posting that I went out and had the three most successful nights I've had since getting into this business.

[Mikey]

I think he is absolutely right, except improving lifestyle will not fix the problem either. Tons of wealthy doctors, lawyers and business men are in the game because they suck at basic social skills.

So to go against the grain here.. learning the Mystery method will do jack for your game if you don't have the conversational skills, self esteem, and positive attitude that makes you a person that other people like to be around in general. That must be implemented first before you can even dream of getting a girl off of a cold approach.

[wukidd]

as far as i can remember, Style mentioned this in "The Game" (how they are making clones of themselves).
alot of stuff out there, say the DYD book focus alot on theories and rules, whereas VAH gives us a more complete structure to PU and conversation dynamics.

the problem with a normal person is usually something like approach anxiety, not knowing the structure, etc.

Whereas the others, the weaker ones that dont have much social skills. The problem lies deeper. Nerd, being picked on when young, left out. Reading PU material itself will probably not be able to help them that much. They need something that will boost their self esteem, like David Deangelo suggested in one of his seminars: new friends. They will need something that will sharpen they minds, I believe stuff like the "Reframe and shittest" thread, will gradually help them if they participate.


VAH may have provided a great new point of view for you, as it did for me, but it did not GIVE you your new life. You felt that way because you were searching for it, VAH may have helped you find it, but only in yourself, where it was already existing..


shit man, you starting to make me feel all spiritual and stuff ... those words are golden dude

[Sovereign]

I am going to make this really simple. Rather than rant on about the incredible incapacity of certain people to 'get it'.

You can go on all day long about 'inner game', you can show method after method to help in-field social interaction as it relates to PU.

But until someone decides to deal with their issues, love themselves enough to want to truly improve their lives, none of this will work.

I think you will find that there is a manifest and latent motive for the majority of the people who enter this community:

Manifest: to get laid

Latent: to get back at all the women who rejected them and SHOW THEM ALL.

Only a few come in for real self-improvement and to become BETTER MEN.

We as a community need to stress more than we currently do, the aspect of becoming all around Better Men. Through improving their lives AND social ability. And currently the community DOES NOT do this as a whole, it is more of a side point, rather than the focus.

Now if any of you intend to argue that point, you will certain lose the respect of a lot of people.