The UFO theory

[The Wild One]

I posted this because I know many atheist minded people surf threw the pick up Universe. I was curious what people believe regarding UFO sighting, and the existence of life beyond Earth. Considering the fact military generals, astronauts, and extremely credible people around the world are reporting on this in droves would it be crazy to think something else could exist? What do you think?

In my own experience the US Government is very capable of covering up this for a variety of smart reasons. The first one being if the stories are true that means another being with far greater technology is able to operate without any seemingly sound defense in our airspace which is disconcerting. The second reason is religious because America is a deeply religious country in many ways and this kinda knowledge given to the public would cause a great deal of religious upheaval. Third their is the possibility the United States is the one country with actual access to advanced alien technology which is being reversed engineered very slowly. The reason it would be slow is because if the reports are true this alien technology would be so advanced the landing of a space craft to be reversed engineered could be equivilant to landing a F-22 raptor in Rome during the reign of Julius Caesar. It would be enormously advanced and be thus extremely difficult to pick apart and would take time. Although it would lead to major advancements slowly but surely... If a country had such a device and others didn't it would make sense to keep it very secret. So me personally I believe theirs a good chance aliens do exist.

[Conspirer]

If there was life on other planets (I'm saying neither way as I can not prove either) A) why would they want to visit us? B) Why would they be so much more advanced to be able to reach us? and C) If they're that much more advanced why don't they just kill us and take our planet seeing as they want to come here so often.

Conspirer

[Paris]

No, Physics, shows that it is impossible for life from other planets to come here.
It's not the the technology doesn't exist, it's that the physics doesn't exist either.

[JackWhite80]

There are literally... well... a lot of planets out there, that is a fact. What are the odds that one of them, just one, has the right conditions for life?
I believe that there is life of some kind out there.

[Nice_Boy]

Call me a geek but I watch national geographic alot. And for some weeks ago I was watching a series that says that life on another planet exist.

It takes about 200 million years to get there. But the scientist have been able to get xray pictures of that planet with life. It seems like life on that planet are not advanced beings. They are just like big creatures and these creatures eat each other. Some creatures eat meet and some eat plants.

It was a very good episode but I dont remember what it is called :(

[Sincerelee]

Bill Murray, Madeline Murray O'Hare's son, not the comedian, used the possibility of life on other planets to convince atheists of the possibility of the existance of God, so one does not need be an atheist to accept the possibility of life on other planets.

Now, whether there is or not, does not affect the Christian in any manner. It is possible that in the pre-Noah flood era, some humans found a way to do space travel, found a planet that would sustain human life, and did so. But, the Bible does not indicate anyone leaving this planet, other than Enoch. It seems like a pretty important point to observe, but then again, God's thoughts are higher than mine.

Having said that, the deifinition of life needs to be considered. Living organisms may exist on other planets. They may be of microscopic nature. Or of unfathomed propotions. They may be plant life, or a more sentient nature.

If sentient life exists on other planets, and has progressed to the point of space flight, it seems highly unlikely they have ventured to earth. The arrival seems by nature to warrant a public knowledge of it. A government fear of advanced knowledge being released sounds ridiculous.

First, having worked in the federal government for 15 years, in different venues, as a contractor, I know we are incapable of hiding conspiratorial secrets. Heck, we sold nuclear secrets to the Chinese 12 years ago. We gave them a HARD DRIVE FULL of nuclear info!

Second, if the desire of aliens was benevolent, they would have shared with everyone. If they were malevolent, they would have destroyed us, or attempted with much fallout from warfare. Or, they would have been subversive. Subversion is expensive, though.

The more likely answer is that what we experience here is terrestrial in nature.

I would not be surprised if someday, we find a form of life on another planet. I suspect it will be completely foriegn and probably incapable of interacting with us on any level, because the environment on Earth is probbly as inhospitable to them as theirs would be to us.

However, as pointed out, as far as our understanding of physics prevents us to accept with logic the possibility of life outside an environment similar to our own.

For the Christian, the key aspect we would need to deal with is preaching the GOspel. Based on my understanding of the Bible, we would not need to evangelize other life forms. They did not sin. Humanity did. So, the redemption story of Jesus Christ need not be told to them in hopes of saving their souls.

[Sawyer]

i say simply:
YES: they do exist! if the universe is as infinite as it's made out to be, it's impossible for us to be the only sentient race in existence.

No: they have not visited us! if the universe was created at the same time, then we would have had the same time period to evolve sentience, technology etc. and so realistically any alien race can only be 1/2 discoveries ahead of us (at most) since we have had the same time to refine these technologies. therefore no race could have had the capabilities to travel however many lightyears it is to greet us!

[The Wild One]

Maybe earth for aliens would be fascinating in its own right. I mean from what it seems like the most activity or UFO related stories occured after the development of the atom bomb. Every report of alien craft contacting earth the 5% or so of actual credible sightings are also associated with very high amounts of radiation. It might seem aliens are watching our development with more curiosity if they do exist due to our development of nuclear technology. I believe if life formed on a large planet in the right setting evolution could create a life form as intelligent or more intelligent than people. It's a possibility, and with astronauts who are extremely intelligent, generals, and world leaders coming to the same conclusion it seems like a very viable possibility.

The ufo activity centered around the desert in America where the first nuclear bombs were tested so maybe that's what could've lead to a possible extraterrestrial interest. Also in Russia where the second wave of nuclear experiments took place soon after America. I think it's interesting.. I've heard the psychological data as to hallucination's etc.. but pilots and especially astronauts who were ace fighter pilots have amazingly good eyes and are the best witnesses on the planet. So I don't really believe much in that when you've got an amazingly smart, and capable person who's the top of their field contradicting a joe blow psychologist the government highered to discredit the hypothesis.

[11.9%AFC]

Anyone with a basic understanding in the formation of life and the size of universe will agree that life does exist outside of Earth with absolute certainty.

[Sincerelee]

I had a long argument written concerning the proof of alines versus proof of God. But, to keep from sending this to fight club, I erased it.

[11.9%AFC]

I had a long argument written concerning the proof of alines versus proof of God. But, to keep from sending this to fight club, I erased it.
omg Sincerelee, why do u stalk me so much! u comment everywhere i comment :eek:

but no worries, I like u

[Sincerelee]

omg Sincerelee, why do u stalk me so much! u comment everywhere i comment :eek:

but no worries, I like u

Because I heard you give great oral!:rolleyes:

Oh, wait. The said Oratory. OK, nevermind. I'll leave you alone.:cool:

[11.9%AFC]

You are a true PUA, good job on reframing my shit test! But you've miscalibrated a bit, what if I am a LSE girl? I'd turn my back on you with disgust if you say that to me.

[Sincerelee]

If you were a girl with Low Self Esteem, i wouldn't want you near me. I want women with a good helping of self esteem.

[11.9%AFC]

Except you are the one stalking me everywhere I go

[Sincerelee]

I keep hoping you will say something worth my time spent reading your posts. Comeon! Don't disappoint me! (You know I only kid because I love the attention you give me:D)

[11.9%AFC]

I keep hoping you will say something worth my time spent reading your posts. Comeon! Don't disappoint me! (You know I only kid because I love the attention you give me:D)

Keep hoping, maybe pray for it, I'll let you know if I change my mind. ;)

[The Wild One]

It's interesting to note in the next few months NASA will be launching a new satellite with updated technology to search exclusively for planets like earth. The current satellites are very old and the technology on them way out of date so it will be interesting to see in the next few years what that turns up. Right now they have identified around 400 planets roughly but they seriously need to be searching with improved equipment. With that I'm sure that number will shoot up to close to a few thousand in a few years.

[Maverick69]

No, Physics, shows that it is impossible for life from other planets to come here.
It's not the the technology doesn't exist, it's that the physics doesn't exist either.

Physics does not explain everything. I think you meant to say was that our current understanding of physics suggests that it's impossible. However, we know from experience that physics is not always correct. Albert Einstein predicted that black holes existed but the physics at the time proved that it couldn't be. Many years after Einstein died, we proved that black holes do in fact exist. I do believe it's more than possible for life on other planets. I mean the universe is expaning everyday with billlions upon trillions of stars and planets. Who's to say we're the only planet in the entire universe who can sustain life. There's also a theory out that there is a silicone based lifeform out there as it is the closest element atomically to our carbon based life form. There are more stars in the sky than there are grains of sand on the earth and it's just humans being egotistical saying that we are the only life form because we believe that we are the greatest thing out there. Complete b.s. way of thinking if you ask me. Apparently we cannot travel past the speed of light however there are theories on wormholes which basically says that there is a warp in space-time and you can travel larger distances in shorter times. I remember seeing something on the history channel about flight 19 flying through the Bermuda Triangle. The pilots radioed in around miami and lost contact with the base and 5 minutes later they connected with another base some 3,000 miles away. The theory is that they had in fact traveled through a wormhole. Sure these are all theories but theories are supported with scientific evidence over and over again, just like pick-up.

[Sincerelee]

Wild, trying to find compatible planets with today's tech is like lookibg through a straw to identify identical peas 100 yards away.

[The Wild One]

Good thing we all use the devils technology these days. j/k Anyways here's a few facts I've stumbled upon in my journey from religion.

1) People still to this day do not have the fainest clue of just how many things we're capable of if we explore the unknown in search of knowledge for responsible and prudent use.

2) We must never stop exploring the unknown because it seems to hard or vast. Yes their's so much we don't know and will learn threw our development as a species, but simply not trying is an excuse only for the weak minded. Also if your a student of religious history note that the Church has for a very long time stood in opposition of many scientific truths that have allowed for the betterment of humanity as a whole. Go to a hospital sponsored by a church and realize at one time everything that place stood for was called evil and demonic yet now they have a logo on it. Who's right or wrong? Who's scared and who's really the brave one? The one that accepts what he's told for fear of social reprisal or the one who thinks freely of his own volition?

3) This satellite will be a push in a positive direction and I believe it's a smart direction. Searching the unknown isn't a sin it's the duty of those who seek to better the world in which they live for the next generation.

Finally this is my theory on religion, and the et thing. I believe life exists outside this planet. This life I believe our ancestors who lacked science, and basic understandings we all share today mistook these creatures to be supernatural beings. These creatures came probably for the same reasons we are interested in finding life in other worlds, because it's interesting. Finding our world in our early evolution I believe they shared basic concepts with us to push us along our development so that maybe one day they could have a dialog with us when we developed the ability to comprehend them.

This will also seem a bit crazy but I have a theory about why so many visits took place in the mid 1900's. I believe after our development of the atom bomb they came back to push us a bit further to develop or thinking to an eventual stage where we can mentally comprehend them without throwing the entire human race into disarray.

Many things we think are in fact impossible over time will become very possible. Maybe not in the way we think it will happen but it will happen none the less.

This is scary because it means we're all little fish in a big pond filled with lots of fish that can maybe hurt us. This doesn't mean some great design can't exist because maybe it does but if you look at the religious concepts we've believed along side new developments in our understanding you can't help but think maybe they didn't have it exactly right on. While some of their ideas are good this doesn't mean they all are. If you can accept people wrote these texts then maybe you can accept you don't really know what lies beyond this world. As scary as that may be it doesn't mean you need or have to fear it if you don't wish to. The greatest thrill a man can face is defying fear with success it is like fooling the devil. :)

Also I do disagree with many of my atheist friends who point out a variety of data to disclaim alien life in or around us. Namely because they do it with the same one tracked thinking Christianity can use only going in the opposite direction. Agreeing that the universe can be created by a large bang without understanding it totally and then with a masterful knowledge deny we should use assumptions to a certain degree to encourage positive growth is foolish. If Thomas Edison thought using the same ideas we would still be using candles to light our homes. I've explored the oceans of our planet and have come to realize how little we have explored of this very place we still inhabit. It's a safe bet the Universe immediately around us can be filled with many things that we are unaware of.. Also Dawkins accusation that Aliens only visit morons doesn't hold water he should wrap his mind around the fact that many nasa pilots believe in the idea, and the military data surrounding the issue.

If you think that people can't overlook things then throw yourself off a boat in the ocean with a epirb and see how long your local Coast Guard takes to find you... Then tell me we can't overlook things in an area as large as space. It's a ridiculous way to think from people who like to hold themselves in the light of genius.

[Sincerelee]

Wild, do not lump all religions into one big anti-science group.

The opposition of science in the middle ages was not from all of Christianity. It was from a particular sect that held major influence and power throughtout Europe. They had made proclomations that they expected to deem infallible truths. Changing those truths would mean they were not all-knowing and all=powerful as they claimed.

Those changes would mean that they could be wrong on other issues. Being wrong would mean they would lose followers, and losing followers would mean they would lose power. They used the ignorance of the masses to create opposition and martyrdom for those who were a threat.

There is another form of opposition to science from Christianity. That is not for fear of power loss, but a loss of morality. That loss of morality will cause the withholding of God's blessings on a nation.

For instance, will Baptists lose control power over the masses if we allow the killing of the unborn? No, because beyond the moral argument, there is logical arguments against it.

Embyonic Stem Cell research. To the Christian, this is seen as macabre experimentation on a living being. Yes, from yours and many others, these are not human beings. From our viewpoint they are. If we allow the free use of embryos to our viewpoint, we see it as no different from using old people for experiments against their will...because really, what are old people in nursing homes doing besides using our air, wasting electricity and heating fuel (I say this sarcatically)?

We see life as human sacred, no matter what stage it is in. It is not because we fear being showed we are wrong, thus destroying our entire religious structure. For proof of my argument, consider this: whether we Christians oppose such experiments, there are places where such experiments are taking place despite our opposition, and many are proving that the initial objective is being achieved, yet we are still not shaken in our faith.

A true Christian does not fear science for knowledge's sake. Jesus said, "The Truth will make you free." While He was undoubtibly talking about Himself, this statement also applies to scientific knowledge. The more we understand about our universe, the better we are.

Not only that, but a true Christian believes that "the heavens declare His glory" so the more we find out what is out there, the more we glorify God and His creation.

Having said that, keep in mind that society does not have limitless resources. Many believe the funds spent on space exploration would be better spent meeting the needs of humanity rather than science.

Creating and fostering an adversary position does not help the cause of those who want further exploration. Great achievements, such as the non-government funded space flight that took place a few years ago are what will change hearts and minds about space exploration. Great challenges issued by men of vision, such as Kennedy's challenge to get to the moon by the end of the 1960s is what inspires space achievement.

Both Bush's challenged us to reach Mars with a manned spacecraft. But, due to political posturing, both were ridiculed as being unlearned. If you want space exploration, put aside the fighting.

[The Wild One]

Ok well I don't want to get in a big writing contest about our views on religion. You are a devote Christian and I don't really care for organized religion as a whole. I don't dislike people for their beliefs I just disagree and that's me.

You're previous post represent very common views and I think this is why the information on this subject is not released. People aren't ready for it just yet.

[Phantastic]

Ugh. There is no credible evidence for UFOs visiting the Earth. All the evidence is a bunch of pseudo science, like ghost hunters and psychics. I'm not saying it isn't happening, just that there is no evidence.

As for there being life on other planets, there is simply no way of guessing. It isn't just a matter of "the universe is really big, there must be life somewhere". From a thermodynamic point of view, life is really, really weird. It's kind of like setting a bottle of vodka on your kitchen counter and finding it separated into two layers of alcohol and water the next day. On the other hand, the universe is really, really big. And if you had enough bottles of vodka, one of them is bound to partition itself into two layers, right? At the end of the day no one knows how many bottles there are, and what the odds of them forming the two layers are. You just have to accept that it's an unknowable question.

That is one of the reasons religion has such a strong appeal to so many people. It gives us definitive answers to questions. Science is always telling you that you have to wait for answers, or that you may never get them. Who would want to hear that?

[Sincerelee]

Religion tells people they need to wait for answers all the time. The Bible promises we will eventually know why everything has happened. We are encouraged to be content until then.

[The Wild One]

100 billion possibilities to this theory, and I remain optimistic that we'll find some incredible stuff if we explore them.

[Sincerelee]

I am not trying to turn this into a religious vs. agnostic debate. I only want to dispel the notion that true Christianity abhors science, as science. So, I will share this one last Bible verse. It shows that the Bible favors the exploration of all sciences.
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

This points out that the vast mysteries or our existance glorifies God because we are amazed at His handiwork. It also says that a person, namely a king because in monarchies, everyone is a subject to the king, brings himself biblical honor by pursuing scientific research.

I might add that through inference, this verse also indicates that scientific research is expensive...it requires the wealth of a king to do it.



Now, as for life on other planets.

Do you think finding water on the moon will help space exploration more than focussing on building an intergalactic type ship?

My personal thought is that if we find a fuel source that is more efficient than earthly common fuels, we will have the means to power a craft. The problem is that we will need to travel at speeds approaching that of light in a vaccuum. (We do not NEED to have a fast ship, but it would make things much better for the explorers on board..I'll explain after the next point is made.)

To reach those speeds, we will need an energy source that climbs, perhaps exponentially, to match the speed at which the vehicle travels, with a little more to continue the accelleration. That means the energy source would need to approach infinity as we approach light speed.

Theoretically, we could the sun as the source of propulsion. Satellites use this type of thrust. It seems to be an infinite source of energy, and theoretically can accelerate a vehicle to the speed of light. However, the thrust output of these engines is so small that the time needed to reach light speed at constant acceleration is prohibitely long.

The most viable solution I have seen proposed is a fusion/fission thruster with a collector on the front of a craft. The collector, on the front of the vehicle collects particles in space, causes a nuclear reaction in the engine, expelling the energy out the thrusters...kinda like a space jet engine. The faster it travels, the more particles it collects, allowing for more thrust. Currently, this vehicle is cost-prohibitive. The other concern is that it could destroy space environment with expelling spent radioactive waste in the exhaust.

Conventional thrust would work, but given out shrinking natural resources, this appears to be less likely than ever, unless we find a fuel source, such as the hoped for ice on the moon. But, even then, the fuel is limited.

So, we need to find a new source of energy production.

[Sincerelee]

ABout the not needing a fast ship...

While speed would mean we can arrive at our destination much quicker, we do not necessarily need a fast ship. We would need a ship that sustains life so long as it takes to arrive at the destination. It would be similar to wagontrains heading from the eastern USA tot he western USA in the 1800s. Wagon trains were slow, but packed everythign needed to get to the west.

If we could build a slow moving ship that was self-sustaining, it would eventually arrive. Today's survival training exploration seems to be the place to look for that. Phillips has deveoped a self-sufficient eco system that would allow a person to survive with no outside sources.

The problem is this. We send a ship into space, at a crawl...generations live in the ship so that 100s of years from now, the shiparrives at its destination. During time, equipment would break and need replacements. decisions would need to be made that try people's ethics. It wouold become Lord of the Flies.

Also, even if that problem could be rectified, given the advancement of science, we would likely develop craft that fly farther, faster, long before the muletrain ship gets half way to its destination.

One final consideration is that what we observe of space is what happened 10s of 1000s of years ago. What catastrophies have happened since we recorded our observations?

[The Wild One]

Sincerely I would like to tell you I will never be a christian, jew, muslim, or anything extremely religious. Laws are made by man because we can't properly handle and problem. In religious works you always have laws, and it's my belief this proves man wrote this with the influence to control people and manipulate them to serve them. I'm not saying I dislike your beliefs I just don't agree with them so my motivations compel me to search for answers you may have been raised from a child to not understand. Everything I see in religious writing points to male imperfection more than benevolent thinking. So I can't go along with it morally

[The Wild One]

FYI - 32 new planets discovered in recent weeks check CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/10/19/space.new.planets/index.html

Also check this article out

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090806184434.htm

[diegomartinez6933]

Life does exist, you have to die to expierence it.

[The Wild One]

To really live you must understand and be true to yourself. Guilt is the worst thing to live with and die with. Understand death is natural, and it occurs but never let the fear of it dominate the way in which you live. Accepting it rather than fearing it will set you free. No ones knows really what lies beyond that transition.. What this has to do with UFO's I really don't understand but.. Anyways.

[Sincerelee]

Death has much to do with UFOs. Some people, not myself, believe that our spirits leave our bodies and wait in a spirit realm waiting for a space craft to take the spirit away.

About 12 years ago, the cult, Heaven's Gate, believed that a space craft was flying in the tail of Hale Bopp Comet. They believed that in order for a person to catch a ride on that ship, they needed to shed their meat shell body that keeps us trapped on earth.

They are not the originators of this belief and they are not the last to believe this. It sounds far fetched. As far fetched as the idea that our world exists without a devine creator sounds to me.

As far fetched as my belief that Jesus rose from the dead and gives eternal life to all who believe in Him, sounds to you. That promise of eternal life is why I do not fear death.

You asked. I explained, what death has to do with UFOs.

Now, about Heaven's Gate. How wouold you prove that Do, Marshall Applewhite, was wrong? Can you produce evidence that he was incorrect? The reason I ask this is because the evidence that he was right is about as strong as evidence that UFOs are more than natural phenomenon that we misinterpret as visits from extraterrestrials.

[The Wild One]

kinda interesting stuff you guys might like or not..
again I don't believe in a spiritual realm but I do believe in logic. Theirs allot we people don't know yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LMZvwspKko

[The Wild One]

Alright guys here are some new cool fun facts. This year marks a huge point in which the military and nasa are really looking hard for earth like planets. Using new satellites and one old one called the Corot from France allot of interesting new theory is being produced as to the possibility of life on other worlds.

This year 13 earth like planets have been discovered and an additional 7 by the French Corot. In our solar system alone 316 stars host systems of planets. Six of them have planets that have earth like planets orbiting near the same distances from earth like stars as our own planet. Factor in also this is such a small spectrum win compared to the fact we have billions of stars in space.

Below are a few close stars with possible earth like planets that exist in our galaxy.

1)Gliese 581
2)HD 181433
3)Glise 876
4)HD 7924
5)HD 40307
6)HD 285966

The top scientist at nasa tend to all believe as do I that their is definitly life out in the cosmos. That's bigger than columbus discovering the new world.. Pretty crazy stuff guys to think about..

Most of the stars being looked at with the new equipment are looking 600 to over 1000 light years out. The older stuff could only see 400 to 600 which is very limited and now we're discovering all kinds of stuff with the more powerful technologies. :)

[Ricky D]

yeah, i have been to Gliese 581 last year, went to the beach nd stuff, hot girls to!

ANYWAYZZZ...think about this "we are currently trying to look for planets where we could find life in OUR reality".

Were looking for earth like planets. (i actualy dont know if we are still doing so)

We used to think that "life" needs oxygen, sun, warmth, etc.
Couple years back we found a "muddle of mud" somewhere deep in the ocean, in pitch blackness. Around that puddle were small "volcano like" things blowing out exremely hot gass...in and around those gass blowing things...they found living creatures, worms, crabs and other life.

This was a huge reality shift as this showed us that everything we thought is needed for "life" was just based on "our life" (Life as we KNEW it)

Interesting stuff...

[The Wild One]

Yeah good point.

[Diablos]

As much as you think that some micro organism doesnt exist .

It seriously does .

;]

[Sincerelee]

This was a huge reality shift as this showed us that everything we thought is needed for "life" was just based on "our life" (Life as we KNEW it)

Interesting stuff...

If the search really became a search for significant life, then we would not have as much hope. Microorganisms are even more insignificant on other plants than they are on earth.

Yes, I understand the idea that if life is on other planets, even microscopic, if evolution is correct, means that given perfect conditions, perfect life could form and advance much faster than we have. And, if there is the possibility of a perfect planet, then there is a possibility of an identical environment like Earth. Then, we might find people identical to us...if evolution is a correct theory.

I expect, at most, all we will find on a planet with like environment is that we can introduce our life forms and populate it like Earth.

[Rodehard]

No, Physics, shows that it is impossible for life from other planets to come here. It's not the the technology doesn't exist, it's that the physics doesn't exist either.

As someone with a PhD in Theoretical Astrophysics and relativity,,, you are wrong. We know it can be done, WE just don't have the capabilities yet. Science one said it was impossible to travel fast then 20 MPH, go to the moon, fly an airplane, break the sound barrier, create ion drive, the list is infinite.

[Rodehard]

When I was a kid Christianity preached that man could never go to the moon because it was God’s moon, before that Penicillin was the work of the devil, the world was flat, science was evil… the list is infinite in reference to how many times man did not know what he was talking about. Science is the same way, we make mistakes… we just don’t burn people at the stake for not believing in what we say.

It is possible that in the pre-Noah flood era, some humans found a way to do space travel?

In reading the story of The Tower Babel, Yahweh did not scramble the languages because they built the tower; it says he did so because if we remained as one race, we could do anything we set our minds to. The Jewish scholars refer to a “schem” that would reach into space as what Yahweh stopped.

I have often wondered if, since this was a clear violation of our free will which God would never do, if an ET has had some part in interfering with out evolution. It is self evident from the passage someone did not want us going out into space. The same is true for Ezekiel and the wheel, why would God need a spaceship or any other flying machine?


If sentient life exists on other planets, and has progressed to the point of space flight, it seems highly unlikely they have ventured to earth. The arrival seems by nature to warrant a public knowledge of it. I know we are incapable of hiding conspiratorial secrets.

The Government does a lot of things you will never know about. They would cover this up because it poses to great a threat to their power. Look at Area 51, it existed for a long time before the Russian spy photos showed it. While the Government admits that 50 year old technology (Blackbird) was created there, they will not admits to anything going on now. The Blackbird and U2 were a secret for 20 years. We do black ops all the time you will NEVER know about. Its all compartmentalized so even if I wanted to spill the beans, I don't know enough to say anything of value.

Second, if the desire of aliens was benevolent, they would have shared with everyone.

Giving advance technology to any species is too dangerous.

The more likely answer is that what we experience here is terrestrial in nature.

I have often wondered this. Does it not make sense that with less than 10% of the worlds oceans explored, and all the myths about other races under ground, and under the ocean, it is more probable that sentient life exists elsewhere on earth. I guy I used to work with had all these passages from the Bible that talked about sentient life else where on Earth. I never really paid attention, but supposedly there are passages that refer to life underground, and in the oceans, that have souls??

[Rodehard]

Einstein was smart no doubt about that, but remember as far as interstellar Physics goes, there is no way for humanity to test a theory without being part of the test. Take time dilation for example. Research has shown that the faster you travel the slower time moves for you. Still there is no way to test that theory without you being part of the experiment. If you are in the experiment, your presence skews the results. When I go diving my watch looses time. I can infer from the data that diving slows down time. However until someone outside of my frame of reference, can independently test that theory, there is no way to unbiased test it. Everyone calls this the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle but its actually Observer Bias.

In science if you prove a Law to be wrong once, it is no longer law. If I drop my keys, and no outside force acts on them, yet they do not fall to the ground, the law of gravity is no longer a law. It’s the law of falsafiability. I don't prove I am right, I prove I am not wrong. That being said, NASA has released photos of a black hole emitting plasma streams that are traveling faster than the speed of light. The data has been independently verified. Einstein's Law says that even 1 atom traveling at the speed of light would require all the energy of the Universe. Yet we see evidence that proves this is not true. If Einstein's Law is broken for 1 atom then it cannot be arbitrarily applied to “everything” Granted we may not be able to build a ship with the power of a black hole, but that is a limit of our technology, not a limit of the Universe.

During the dark ages, science was stalled out by Christianity for 800 years. Based on the stuff we can do now, and extrapolating, if it had not been for Bible thumper's murdering all the smart people and forcing us to live in a superstitious society for 800 years, there would be no poverty disease, war, famine, and we would be out there exploring the stars.

[Sincerelee]

Yes, it is relatively easy for life to go from a safe environment to a hostile environment, so long as that life has a means to enscapsulate a friendly environment for the journey. For example, man has been to the moon...a surface that if humanity was exposed to it, would die, mainly from a lack of oxygen. But, with a suit that maintains the environment we need to sustain life, we got there, played golf, and took lots of pictures.

I guess technically, we haven't been on the moon, because Neil Armstrong's actual skin did not touch the surface of the moon, but if there happened to be a Martian family vacationing there, he would have been face to face with it.

Speaking of this, anyone seen the new movie, "Area 51"? I'm thinking of seeing it tonight.

[Rodehard]

Life is pretty amazing, it evolves in every nook and cranny no matter how hosttile and forbidding the environment is.

Now that I am retiring I have a plan. I am going to build a FTL capeable ship in my garage using parts from Radio shack, leave earth and fly to some distant tropical planet where a bunch to Playboyesque women worship me as a god. Kind of like when Colombus came to the New World. I just won't screw it up like he did. Only a AFC would find a planet full of beautiful women who worship his as a god and then call other AFCs guys to come check it out. I'll be like "Huston AAAAAAAA its eating me, atmoshpere acid, T-Rexs everwhere, Alien probes,, AAAAAAA."

Then use the ship to build the Rodehard Mansion and set up my own commandments
1. Thou shall be 36C, 28, 34 and of beauty defined. 2. Thou shall have full firm breasts, round asses and flat stomachs. 3. Thou shall have IQ's over 180 and place science in reverence...
ETC

[azazels_wolf]

In reading the story of The Tower Babel, Yahweh did not scramble the languages because they built the tower; it says he did so because if we remained as one race, we could do anything we set our minds to. The Jewish scholars refer to a “schem” that would reach into space as what Yahweh stopped.

I have often wondered if, since this was a clear violation of our free will which God would never do, if an ET has had some part in interfering with out evolution. It is self evident from the passage someone did not want us going out into space. The same is true for Ezekiel and the wheel, why would God need a spaceship or any other flying machine?


The word "shem" actually means name, in the sense of fame or infamy....

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. "

People like to theorize this meant a "spaceship", but the word shem as "name" has reasonable precedence in other passages as well.

The "wheels" of Ezekiel were the living wheels of a Chariot - the Throne was envisioned as a flying chariot, called a Merkabah. This is indeed often associated with UFOs, and if you look into ancient Merkaba mysticism, you will find that there were mystics were regarded the merkaba as a divine vehicle for travel through the universe (more specifically, astral travel). and that this was accessible to any individual with the proper knowledge and training. It was not mechanical though - it was purely energy based. You may want to look into the Merkaba technology in connection with the concept of sacred geometry called the Flower of Life.

[Rodehard]

The word "shem" actually means name, in the sense of fame or infamy....

The "wheels" of Ezekiel were the living wheels of a Chariot - the Throne was envisioned as a flying chariot, called a Merkabah.

Thanks. The thing is if you talk to 20 different scholars who are fluent ancient Hebrew, they will each have a different meaning. Worse yet humans in any story, only tell you the part of the story that supports their side of the argument. How do you know who is right?

Take Bruce Gernon for example. For those of you who do not know who he is, he has been on History Channel a lot lately. His story is he was flying from Andros Island in the Bahamas to Palm Beach. He flies through a cloud and moments later magically appears over Miami. He claims that this cloud had a mysterious effect called electronic fog that let him cover the 250 miles in 27 mins. He also claims that he traveled through time. He wrote books, did interviews made bank. They go over this story in detail on the History channel, etc. shows, but they always leave out one detail, according to the tower log at Andros, Bruce left an hour and a half earlier than he says he did. Add that FACT in and his story is not anything special. The same is true for most of the Bermuda Triangle stories, Chariots of the Gods, organized religions, governments, and game we only tell them what we want them to know to close.

For me it comes down to facts. It is improbable to the point N reaches infinity that the Universe occurred by chance. Therefore it had to have been created by a source with more power than the entire Universe. By definition this would be God.

The probability that a finite creature like man has an understanding of God, N approaches negative infinity.

The probability that intelligent life capable of interstellar travel in a lifetime is statistically significant on the .001 level. using the most bias against such, i.e., mathematically where n cannot equal 0 there is a > 69% chance of such life existing in the Milkyway. That increases each time we find a new life form or new planet.

To blend my faith that ET could exist and my faith in God, I just remember that the track record of organized religion makes Adolph Hitler, look like a saint and proves that if the leaders of faith were not saints but tyrants who tortured and killed anyone who did not agree with them and who change the story as they go along to fit their current needs.

While on the subject, does anyone know about a story from the Bible that says the Asteroid belt used to be a Planet. A guy I used to work with keeps saying that it used to be a Planet, Lucifer's home base or something, and so God destroyed it? As there is not enough matter the to make up even a small moon, I don't think this is really a story from the Bible, but I am curious. Of course he also believes in the lizard people living underground and quotes the old testament to prove it.

Genesis 6 used to have a story about "heavenly beings mating with humans". I say Used to have because that part is missing from my new KJV. From what I have been told Angles do not have reproductive organs, and it was Angles who were mating with the humans... how does one have sex without a dicK.

[azazels_wolf]

Thanks. The thing is if you talk to 20 different scholars who are fluent ancient Hebrew, they will each have a different meaning. Worse yet humans in any story, only tell you the part of the story that supports their side of the argument. How do you know who is right?


Well, if you want to see one of the earliest written accounts of the Tower of Babel, before Genesis was written down, check out the Sumerian myth called Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta:
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1823.htm

And there are later scriptures with further elaborations on the Tower myth, you can get an overview of that here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_babel



Take Bruce Gernon for example. For those of you who do not know who he is, he has been on History Channel a lot lately. His story is he was flying from Andros Island in the Bahamas to Palm Beach. He flies through a cloud and moments later magically appears over Miami. He claims that this cloud had a mysterious effect called electronic fog that let him cover the 250 miles in 27 mins. He also claims that he traveled through time. He wrote books, did interviews made bank. They go over this story in detail on the History channel, etc. shows, but they always leave out one detail, according to the tower log at Andros, Bruce left an hour and a half earlier than he says he did. Add that FACT in and his story is not anything special. The same is true for most of the Bermuda Triangle stories, Chariots of the Gods, organized religions, governments, and game we only tell them what we want them to know to close.

For me it comes down to facts.


Sure. And once you dig more deeply, and discard the errors and frauds, the facts may be different than what you expected.... but the most important information is usually not the most popular, nor openly revealed to all.



It is improbable to the point N reaches infinity that the Universe occurred by chance. Therefore it had to have been created by a source with more power than the entire Universe. By definition this would be God.

The probability that a finite creature like man has an understanding of God, N approaches negative infinity.


Understanding, and experiencing, are not necessarily the same thing however.



The probability that intelligent life capable of interstellar travel in a lifetime is statistically significant on the .001 level. using the most bias against such, i.e., mathematically where n cannot equal 0 there is a > 69% chance of such life existing in the Milkyway. That increases each time we find a new life form or new planet.

To blend my faith that ET could exist and my faith in God, I just remember that the track record of organized religion makes Adolph Hitler, look like a saint and proves that if the leaders of faith were not saints but tyrants who tortured and killed anyone who did not agree with them and who change the story as they go along to fit their current needs.

While on the subject, does anyone know about a story from the Bible that says the Asteroid belt used to be a Planet. A guy I used to work with keeps saying that it used to be a Planet, Lucifer's home base or something, and so God destroyed it? As there is not enough matter the to make up even a small moon, I don't think this is really a story from the Bible, but I am curious. Of course he also believes in the lizard people living underground and quotes the old testament to prove it.


Well, the exploding planet thing is the Planet Rahab theory, and you can see the corresponding Biblical quotes here:
http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/planet-rahab.htm

They are taken massively out of context though.
Rahab was actually conceived of as a sea-dragon, and/or the guardian angel of Egypt. If Rahab who guarded Egypt was brought down, then Egypt would be powerless from a political and military standpoint.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahab_%28demon%29


Genesis 6 used to have a story about "heavenly beings mating with humans". I say Used to have because that part is missing from my new KJV. From what I have been told Angles do not have reproductive organs, and it was Angles who were mating with the humans... how does one have sex without a dicK.

That is the Watchers, or Grigori
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_%28angel%29

And their giant hybrid children, the Nephilim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

You can have tantric sex without a dick, without any physical contact even.... but as for angels impregnating humans... the angels were often spoken of as taking human form. They could appear as very noticeable, shining beings of fire and light, but they could also appear as ordinary humans who could disguise their divine identity.

[The Wild One]

Well I will say this.. Look guys for some new technologies coming out. One in particular involving fusion reactors. 10 gallons of water will provide the same amount of energy as a Super tanker filled with oil. Putting our need for gasoline worldwide at an end. This will help space travel and provide new ways of getting around threw the use of a new energy source that is much more powerful than the things we currently use. Cool thing about this is it's safe and clean. Pretty interesting...

Some people are about to become extremely wealthy off this.. :)

[Rodehard]

What do you guys think about the "ships" people claim they have seen over Texas and AZ, that are the size of cities? How could you hide something like this and why have none of the witnesses who say they saw the craft in broad daylight only few hundred feet away, not take a cell phone photo. No cell phones in TX or AZ?

A guy at work used to tell me about the aliens doing all kinds of genetic experiments on people. To make sure I understood his logic I asked him "So the aliens fly across millions of light years in a spaceship that is considerably more advanced than anything we have.The travel out to western KS find some 500 lb woman in a trailer sitting naked in her bean bag chair eating Frijtos and watching Murray reruns. The beam her up and do genetic experiments on her to alter our gene pool. Shortly thereafter in Roswell NM Demi Moore is born... LEAVE THE ALIENS ALONE no bad can come from this. OR better yet negotiate with them. Tell them that since they took a 500 lb woman they owe us 4 125lb Demi's.

Seeing as how this super advanced spaceship was brought down by an aluminum foil weather balloon we can assume that the aliens are of the "short school bus" kind. We can Huck Finn them and get them to "whitewash" all or fences i.e., do all the crappy work we don't want to do and give us only HB10's

[Sincerelee]

LOL! Rode!

I'm pretty sure it was Tom Sawyer who did the white wash thing.

Brian Brushwood addresses this extensively in his video, "Scams, Sasquatch, and the supernatural"

[The Wild One]

Not all the stories are true you have to use some common sense but some of them make sense. It's not like ghost stories, and many of the witnesses are without a doubt people that should be taken seriously. If you have some of the worlds most intelligent men all thinking one thing maybe you should pay attention to it.

All the stuff about rednecks and morons believing in this just points away from the fact that many of the people reporting on this are in fact extremely reliable witnesses who are very very smart.

[Rodehard]

If you have some of the worlds most intelligent men all thinking one thing maybe you should pay attention to it.

Exactly, like when all the smart people on Earth said that it was FLAT,
no wait they were wrong...
like when all the smart people said we could never break sound barrier...
no wait they were wrong...LOL

I believe that there are aliens out there, both more and less advanced than us. However if you process the theories about them interfering with us through the scientific method, those theories break down.

The Egyptians did not just build pyramids one day. There are many trial and error builds near the pyramids. Different shapes, sizes, construction methods etc. Unless the aliens were the short school bus kinds, they would have built the pyramids without the trial and error.

Anunnaki is another myth people take to seriously. If a planet 5x the size of earth passed between Jupiter and Mars every 3,500 years, the gravitational sheer would cause an Extinction level event for all life on earth.

Coral Castle in Miami was has blocks of Coral larger than any in the pyramids. Yet it was built by one man in the 20's. If a fleet of UFOs had helped him, someone would have noticed that. When they fixed the door a couple years ago the workmanship was amazing. The guy who built it had used a Ford rear end for the pivot points.

[azazels_wolf]

Anunnaki is another myth people take to seriously. If a planet 5x the size of earth passed between Jupiter and Mars every 3,500 years, the gravitational sheer would cause an Extinction level event for all life on earth.


I think a lot of people also don't realize that if "Nibiru" had a 3,600-year elliptical orbit around the sun, then the planet would be in near-darkness and extreme cold for the vast majority of its orbit. Would any advanced beings live on a planet that had no sun for years and years, due to enormous distance? Very unlikely....


Coral Castle in Miami was has blocks of Coral larger than any in the pyramids. Yet it was built by one man in the 20's. If a fleet of UFOs had helped him, someone would have noticed that. When they fixed the door a couple years ago the workmanship was amazing. The guy who built it had used a Ford rear end for the pivot points.


Well, there are many huge ancient stones, for example in Egypt, Lebanon, and Jerusalem, which weigh 200 tons or more. For a "simple" example, the Western Stone in the Western Wall, which weighs 570 tons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall_Tunnel

Or the Triilithon stones on the platform of Baalbek, weighing over 1000 tons each:
http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/lebanonbaalbek.htm

I am not saying "aliens" built these, but it seems our current understanding of ancient technology is a bit lacking.

[Rodehard]

The Tower of bable thing still has my attention. In the various versions of the story it says "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them." then God goes down and scrambles the languages. It could be viewed as someone interfeering with our natural devolpment.

[Sincerelee]

The Tower of Babel and the judgement that followed is because God had told them, "Replenish the earth," and He also promised, "I will not destroy the earth again by flood."

By building the Tower, they were telling God, "We do not trust your promise that you will not flood the earth again." By unifying and living in one city, they were refusing to obey God to replenish the earth.

Disobedience always bring judgement and mistrust brings condemnation from God.

[Rodehard]

The Tower of Babel and the judgement that followed is because God had told them, "Replenish the earth," and He also promised, "I will not destroy the earth again by flood."

By building the Tower, they were telling God, "We do not trust your promise that you will not flood the earth again." By unifying and living in one city, they were refusing to obey God to replenish the earth.

Disobedience always bring judgment and mistrust brings condemnation from God.

But that is not WHY he says he scrambled the languages, he did it so we would not become all powerful. He does not say You have trust issues with me so I m going to screw you. Or you are not renewing the face of the earth in the way I think is best. He is specific, "then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them" lets go scramble their languages. If God punished them for disobedience he would have said I am going to scramble your languages for disobedience.

Besides look at all the sin and death that scrambling the languages caused. If we were united as one race, with one faith, then the countless wars over religious differences, would have never happened. We would have become all knowing. By what it says "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them" then none of the bad things mankind has suffered would have to happen. We could have a paradise on earth and beyond. This was taken from us because we choose to exercise our free will? God created us for the sole purpose of having a being that could choose to follow him based on free will and faith, then he takes that away the moment we are about to become a great race he is breaking his own laws. That sounds hinky.

One of my greatest blessings and curses, is my analytical reasoning. It allows me to see the flaws in things and keep from being played, but it also hampers my faith in MAN, but never in God. If he created other worlds with intelligent life, then that only shows the power in his word.

As for aliens seeding Earth. That brings up infinite regression, if they did seed earth, who created them, other aliens, then who created them and so on. At some point there was a beginning. Mathematically speaking it is infinitely impossible that man occurred by chance. Or as my sister once told me, "God was talking to a Physicist about creation. The Physicist says I can do everything that you have done using Physics. For example I can create a man out of dirt. God says show me. The Physicist reaches down and grabs a handful of dirt. God says "Hey, get your own dirt".

[Sincerelee]

Rode, you are leaving out one thing. Man is corrupted by sin. Knowledge without morality is very dangerous. It is Iran with nuclear weapons.

It isn't all-knowing, be we all know that the human brain is incapable of containing all knowledge. It has a finite capacity to store knowledge, making it impossible to store infinite knowledge. Even if every person on the earth stored only bits of information that no one else stored, despite being a massive amount of information, it is still short of infinite.

The changing of languages forced people to go to areas where people of like language gathered. This caused emmigration.

God did not punish man for using free will. God blesses free will by inviting man to become a child of God through salvation, and that is an act of the will. (I know someone will talk about the verse that says salvation is not of the will of man. PM me about this, if you want to discuss this. The basic answer is that the act of salvation is only of God, but the act of receiving salvation is the act of the will of the individual. Further discussion will be through PM.) (Or, post ont he "PUA and the Christian" thread.)

Sin isn't caused by language barriers. All sin comes down to being motivated by fear. And, as Paul said to Timothy, "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." This is not talking abotu the "fear" as in "Fear of God", but the fear of loss.

People commit murder because they fear that if their victim lives, the perp will not get what he/she wants. Stealing is a fear that one will not get an object of desire without immoral acquisition of the object.

Fear is the number one route the Devil uses to cause man to sin. Fear is a mighty motivator. In fact, in sales, you are taught two things cause people to buy...a fear of loss, and a hope for gain. That is, a fear if they do not buy right now, they will lose something by not buying. It is also taught that fear of loss motivates people much more than a hope for gain.

This is also why hellfire preaching causes more conversions than gentle invitational preaching of a hope for heaven. People fear the loss of everythign in hell more than they desire the gain of heaven.

But, that is enough Bible preaching on this thread.

[azazels_wolf]

There is also the implication that they wished to "make a name for themselves" by "building a tower whose top will reach unto heaven", i.e. they were prideful and thought to ascribe these accomplishments solely to themselves, while hoping to reach heaven by means of a tall building. In that passage, God wants to prevent them from doing "which they have imagined to do" - obviously with the opinion that the imagined goals are inappropriate. Thus, he humbles them.

[Rodehard]

Lets move this theological stuff to a new thread so we don't hijack this one. see UFO vs Theology. Its interesting but the topic here is if UFOs and aliens exist. The Physicist in me says that all the data points to YES. But if my mom asks, "only if the pope says so" lol

[Rodehard]

If there was life on other planets (I'm saying neither way as I can not prove either) A) why would they want to visit us? B) Why would they be so much more advanced to be able to reach us? and C) If they're that much more advanced why don't they just kill us and take our planet seeing as they want to come here so often.

Conspirer

IF you met an intelligent life from from another planet, how would you react.

[Rodehard]

If there was life on other planets (I'm saying neither way as I can not prove either) A) why would they want to visit us? B) Why would they be so much more advanced to be able to reach us? and C) If they're that much more advanced why don't they just kill us and take our planet seeing as they want to come here so often.

Conspirer

IF you met an intelligent life from from another planet, how would you react.
To answer your ???
A) we have hot women... that is the excuse the Bible gives, they want to go slumming, we taste good, or for the same reason we go study primitive tribes to understand ourselves better.

B) Humanity was held back for 800 years by the Church. If an alien world existed that a mirror image of ours existed but did not have that delay they would have interstellar drive. If they started a billion years before us, they'd be pretty evolved.

C) The more advanced a species the less violent. For example there is some cutting edge technology being tested that can cause the electrolysis of water with minimal energy input. In short if it works the way preliminary tests say it is, you are talking about an inexhaustible source of free clean energy. Add to that our ability to convert laser light into carbon, even though it is in its infancy, the energy from either of the above and another 50 years to perfect it, and we can "replicate" food. Filter that through Maslow's hierarchy of needs and we would have a pretty peaceful existence.

Find a way to prove ET is out there, mankind will unite in a way no one has dreamed of since Babylon.

[Sincerelee]

You won't get utopia until a second person or group of people are able to do the same inventions. Monopolies cause stagnation of advancement and high costs.

As for the church being the cause of lack of progress, I have to disagree. Fear and contentedness with the status quo is what caused a lack of progress. From the begining of man, until the 1800, you could pretty much pull a man from any time period and drop him into any time period, and after a moment of adjustment, and breaking of the language barrier, he could fit right in.

Major advancements were,domestication, simple machines, metalurgy, writen language, mathematics, and gunpowder (I am over-simplifying, but these were the major advances that I can think of off hand). Life in 1800 was very simialr to 300, with philosophy being the main difference.

The church rules you attribute to stagnation of advancement were not always around, yet man advanced little in technology. In fact, much of the religious rules were put in place int he name of civility and stability of society.

Oppressive rules were put in place to keep those in power, in power. And, if they could not justify the rules by religion, they created them because they had the force to enforce the rules. An example of this is the idea that some kingdoms practiced the right of the monarch to have the first sex with a woman of his kingdom...that is not biblical, nor church related.

Most advances have come in the past 150 years...a time when the USA and England were undergoing religious revival, starting with Charles Spurgeon and D. L. Moody, through Billy Sunday, to Billy Graham. During that time, we harnessed electricity, developed numerous cures for diseases, xrays, telephone, radio, television, computers, airplanes, automobiles, nuclear power, advanced agriculture, and numerous other advances, that prior to 1850, were basically performed, if at all, the same way they were for 1000s of years.

Even our own form of government, which has proven to be effective thus far, was created by men who even if they did not accept all restrictions of religion, at least paid homage and service to it.

[The Wild One]

haha this has spurred some heated debate. Rodehard most scientist actually believed the world was round. The church fueled allot of the world is flat idea more than anything..

As for the debate on life outside this planet. It's a good possibility it exists.. Nature seems have it's similarities and in time we will discover that fact with undeniable hard evidence.

I think some time they will stage something to make it seem aliens just popped up to say hi.. When the time is right. Then cover up the fact it's been well known for much longer in secrecy. That's a theory I have.. Maybe I'm crazy but I dunno I think it's very plausible given my own personal knowledge of the government being incredibly good at keeping secrets.

[Sincerelee]

But, Wild, it wasn't Biblical Christianity that claimed flat earth. That started with BC religions, and was theorized by pagans in Greece. If you know Greek mythology, you know this to be true.

Speaking of Greek mythology, in modern times, we look and say, "There is no way they really believed that crap about Apollo riding a fiery chariot every day across the skies. We say that because we have modern knowledge that shows it to be a massive ball of fire and not a chariot. Man has always made assumptions based on what we can see, and claim to be right, and believe to be right until proven otherwise.

So, by the time the Catholic Church, (and please guys, when you say 'the Church' I ask a favor that you specify the Caholic Church because it is insulting to those of us of other faiths that do not accept the Catholic Church as 'the Church' because there is evidence of an alternate church...the independent church movement...existing from the forming of Christianity at Pentacost) came along, it was already established that the earth was flat.

Because the Catholic Church accepted the earth as flat, when evidence came to prove it is spherical, they had to suppress it until they could not deny it, because the Catholic Church established its rule through the Dark Ages by claiming infallibilty on all aspects. For someone to claim a round earth meant they were wrong and they would lose a major tenet.

Losing that tenet would have justified people turning to alternate sects of Christianity, destroying their base.

Non-Catholic doctrine, for the most part had no problem with the earth being round, because Isaiah the prophet spoke about the earth being round, long before the Greek scientists determined the earth to be flat.



As for government coverups. Yes, they keep secrets...for a while. But the motivation of most people is personal advancement. Very few, and definately not enough, tight-lipped people exist to keep alien technology secret. kinda like Tiger Woods...he was able to keep affairs quiet for a while, but now the affairs are coming out. And that was a woman motivated by love, but self-promotion, and probably resentment and revenge, had her coming out with the secret.

People cannot keep quiet.

And, even the President, if he had alien technology available, would reveal it. A tech that no other country has would be very valuable, and he would sell it in a heartbeat to get us out of the recesion we are in, and to fund social programs, especially since his popularity is in the crapper right now.

[Rodehard]

You won't get utopia until a second person or group of people are able to do the same inventions. Monopolies cause stagnation of advancement and high costs.


That is the cool thing about the internet. NASA is researching "the anonymous gravity effect" 10 years ago a Russian Grad student accidentally discovered a side effect of his research was the nullifying of gravity. He didn't want to look stupid so he emailed his research to a college in Finland, who forwarded it to Japan, who sent it to China etc. By the time the Professor came in that Monday 200 of the worlds greatest minds had copies of the research. The genie could not be put back in the bottle. Same is true for the Warp Metric, and electrolysis of water with 12 volts. Scientists not employed by monopolies, do not pay much attention to the lines on a map.

As for the church being the cause of lack of progress, I have to disagree. Fear and contentedness with the status quo is what caused a lack of progress

This is because, by your own admission you reject every piece of undeniable evidence that contradicts your Bible views. It wouldn't do any good to lay out 10,000 pages of FACTS that support my statement because I am questioning the Church and therefore the Bible.

Not to be an ass, or say this is you, but to honor the Reducto:

In my grandmothers time the Church taught that mankind would never go to the moon, and quoted chapter and verse in the Bible to prove this. There are people I know who quote that chapter and verse today and use it to "prove" that man on the moon, satellites, etc. do not exist. You can offer to show them the satellites of the ISS though a telescope, offer to show them the lunar laser ranging retroreflector array Armstrong left on the moon, but they will refuse to look because God said it is not possible. I also know people who swear the earth was created some 6900 years ago on A Tuesday morning at 6 am on March 21st.

The 2 differences between science and religion is we are not afraid to look in the telescope and we don't commit crimes against humanity to make you look in it. The Church is the opposite in both.

New question: For 100s of years the stories the Vikings told about America were discarded as myths by European explorers because the Bible said the world was flat. The Myths were forgotten till Columbus at which pint they were no longer myths but facts.

In that same way assuming that life esists on other planets and we just misunderstood what God said...
If I took you sarging in the Pleiades's say on Erra and you met a race of aliens, how would you react? What would you say do?

[Sincerelee]

Rode, I am familiar with the ideas of sexual freedom being biblical. This is not the thread to debate that, and I probably wouldn't.

I agree with going to the original meaning, rather than modern meanings of words.

When you refer to the Church, not all Christianity forbade science, as you pointed out, it was the Catholic Church that was so oppressive. In fact, many scientists who challenged accepted belief were often from the independent church movement. Some scientists paid lip service to the Catholic Church, for political reasons, but their personal beliefs as revealed in their writings were more in line the independent church movement.

[Rodehard]

As for Catholics, we are the only church God specifically mentions by name in the Bible. Admittedly it is not completely faltering, but it does confirm our legitimacy.

The Greeks new the world was round. I know the myths contradict that, but they have found ancient maps that show the coast of South America and an exact shape for an ice free Antarctica. They have also found cocaine/coffee in Greek and Egyptian corpses, and Heroine in Mayan / Aztec mummies. There are other indicators, but they can not be independently verified.

I agree with going to the original meaning, rather than modern meanings of words.

Original meaning as in the meaning at the time the documents were first written like Babylon in Sanskrit at 2,500 BC, or Original KJV meaning?

As for secrets... Under the Vatican there is more storage than at the Smithsonian. History has it that they gathered everything that could threaten their power and hid it in there and no one is allowed to view those documents. They could have a space ship there and no one would know. They kept these secrets to protect their power. In the same way, the moment ET is confirmed to all humankind,it will unite you in a way no one has dreamed of since Babylon. If only 1 country were to gain access to highly advanced technology from a race of spacefaring aliens and that information got out, it would lead to war. For example if Iran rolled out a Battlestar tomorrow, we would hit them with everything we had out of fear.

If ET dropped by tomorrow, how would you react?



.

[Sincerelee]

If ET dropped by tomorrow, how would you react?

I'd ask to go flying on my motorcycle. Then I'd tell him, "Uh, no you can't use my phone." Then we'd go trick-or-treating. Then we'd smoke Rocky Patel Vintage cigars. We'd go pistol shooting.

I'd teach him pickup so he could be my wing. The opener would be, "My friend does things with his finger that'll blow your mind."

That's about it.

[Rodehard]

With my luck if ET came by my house it would be the Erran's, the 6' tall Arian, flawless women with blond hair and blue eyes for Pleiades's. I'd orgy with them on their home world, in the space ship. (1G and 0 g), on Earth, over a black hole, and everywhere else then get their numbers and set up a weekly orgy. I wouldn't tell anyone about it because you know how PUA are once one of us knows we all know and then I'd have to share. Since there are not any HB9's or below on Erra, there would be no one to share with you. Sorry.

[The Wild One]

If you saw any animal you never had seen before in person you'd be surprised, and remember it fairly well. Not so much scared as surprised, and astonished I'd say. Especially if they're smaller than you are by a considerable amount.

It wouldn't be at all like running up on a bear, or something you have an evolutionarily developed fear of.

[Rodehard]

If you saw any animal you never had seen before in person you'd be surprised, and remember it fairly well. Not so much scared as surprised, and astonished I'd say. Especially if they're smaller than you are by a considerable amount.

It wouldn't be at all like running up on a bear, or something you have an evolutionarily developed fear of.

That is because we are evolving through logic and sciences. It used to be that we were afraid of what we did not know. Now as a species we have learned to not to fear something just because we don't understand it. However Aliens from another planet, due mostly to popular media, (anal probing etc.) do bring out the an evolutionarily developed fear in many people who see them. But we are growing out of that, we are growing out of our infancy.

[The Wild One]

Another little thing to watch boys and girls. The Civilian Space Industry.. In particular Virgin Galactic... We're on the verge of allot of big changes. ;)

That may be the big ticket to blowing this whole thing wide open. Or I could be crazy.. Who knows?

[Rodehard]

Another little thing to watch boys and girls. The Civilian Space Industry.. In particular Virgin Galactic... We're on the verge of allot of big changes. ;) That may be the big ticket to blowing this whole thing wide open. Or I could be crazy.. Who knows?

Of our destruction by a superior race that does not want us out there. Like the legend that Babel was going to build space ship and ET stopped them for fear of the great race we would become.

[Sincerelee]

Then, Rode, we'll just have to AMOG (Alpha Male Of the Galaxy) them to back off while we walk away witht he Venusians.

[Rodehard]

Then, Rode, we'll just have to AMOG (Alpha Male Of the Galaxy) them to back off while we walk away witht he Venusians.

Not me I am running off with the 7 Sisters ( Pleiadeans) Tall blond hair blue eyed full firm breasts,

[Prince of Darkness]

Anyone with a basic understanding in the formation of life and the size of universe will agree that life does exist outside of Earth with absolute certainty.

The thing is the likelihood of life from another planet reaching earth is inversely proportional to the likelihood of life existing on another planet. So even though there are most certainly forms of life outside of our planet, it doesn't matter.

Some consideration as to the definition of 'life' would probably be applicable to this kind of topic as well.

[Rodehard]

The thing is the likelihood of life from another planet reaching earth is inversely proportional to the likelihood of life existing on another planet.

Where did you get this from?

The more life forms out there the more the likely hood that one of them has achieved FTL. This would make the number and reaching earth directly proportional.

The more likely FTL the more likely they have been here. Just like sarging: if there is only one PUA in the room, (no HB's) the chances of him closing are 0. If there are 100 HB 10's in the room there is a high probability of multiple closings.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is none of it has contacted us." Calvin and Hobbes

[The Wild One]

http://www.virgingalactic.com/

[Prince of Darkness]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread381817/pg1 some light for you, a bit off my ideas though but close enough.

[The Wild One]

Additional cool information

Kepler has found two earth like worlds. That's right two earth like worlds. The information from this year alone is proving absolutely amazing. Scientist are now predicting 40% of earth like stars have planets like earth orbiting them. Yeah that's crazy! In the future people who said life can't exist outside of earth for w/e reason will be the same as those who said the earth was flat before Christopher Columbus found the new world.

Star Corot 7,5000 Light years away, and the other I have to figure out where it is.. I'll write about it because it's more like earth than the one mentioned in size etc.. Only twice as big as our planet the same distance from it's own star as earth. Pretty cool!

[Rodehard]

actually according to the official Keppler site they have "found" a rocky body- CoRoT-7b was discovered in February 2009 by the CoRoT space telescope, a European collaboration and its only 500 LY away. Keppleer does say the "found" it we have known was there for over 10 years.

Keppler is still in its shake down stages its not hunting yeet.

To quote Claire Moutou of the Laboratoire d'Astrophysique de Marseille in France, one of the Keppler's lead scientists:

"The planet, called CoRoT-7b, is the first planet beyond our solar system with a proven density similar to Earth's. Most known exoplanets are large gas giants like Jupiter.

Though its terrestrial surface renders CoRoT-7b more similar to Earth than many other exoplanets are, it's still a far cry from a familiar setting. The planet orbits extremely close to its star – about 1.6 million miles (2.5 million km), or 23 times closer than Mercury is to the sun. At this range, the planet's surface temperatures are scorching, with highs above 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit (1,000 degrees Celsius) on the star-facing side.

CoRoT-7b's close proximity to its star means that the planet is likely to be tidally locked, with one side always facing its sun and the other side always in darkness.

"Probably the day side is very hot and is pure lava, boiling, and the other side probably is very cold, and it could be rocky with some mountains," "It's not possible that there is liquid water."

[The Wild One]

Kepplers working man check your sources. This info you've got is just wrong.

[Rodehard]

My source is the Official NASA/keppler site. JPL handed over opperations to NASA Ames on December 16th and the serch has begun. It will conclude in 3.5 years. While you are correct that it has been runing before now, it has been in shake down mode, looking at things we already knew where there to calibrate the telescope.
Officialy the searchbegan Dec 16th.

Still saying CoRoT-7b is "Earth like" and may hold life is a bit off.

I think they should start with the stares like Sirrus, where the myths of earth say visitors came from. It might shorten the search.

[The Wild One]

Kepplers working right now man. Dunno what else to tell you. In the end I promise you people are gonna find out what a few in secret have known for along time. Trust that.. I wish I could explain more but I can't really without getting in a heap of trouble.

[Rodehard]

Yes it began its search Dec 16th 2009, unless your source knows more than NASA. It certainly does not know the difference between "earth like" and lifeless hunk of molten lava.

I wish I could explain more but I can't really without getting in a heap of trouble.

Oh you are one of those guys... LOL Does it count towards PUA status when an alien f'closes you?
I gotta clean up so I can go sarging... have a great night.

[Sincerelee]

Rode, as former military, there are things we cannot talk about. Here in DC, you learn that if someone says they work for the federal government, you don't ask anymore questions.

Wouldn't mater if you did ask more. Everything beyond, "I work for the federal government," is probably a lie to cover up a security job or to cover the fact they are the janitor at the subway stop.

[Rodehard]

Rode, as former military, there are things we cannot talk about. Here in DC, you learn that if someone says they work for the federal government, you don't ask anymore questions.

Wouldn't mater if you did ask more. Everything beyond, "I work for the federal government," is probably a lie to cover up a security job or to cover the fact they are the janitor at the subway stop.

I get the concept of Top Secret. I spent most of my life in the Marines, and have friends who were spooks, I even have dinner on occasion with a former CIA ADA at his house. (Always BBQ and Beer and babes) I have never heard any confirmed spook say anything like "I work for the federal government." Even with the ADA it is a subject you don't bring up.

The ones I know had cover stories, "water quality specialist" and such. They call it "leave no footprints". Do nothing that gives the idea you do intelligence work.

I was recently on a plane where some army guys were coming home. The stewardess announced who they were, where they were from in Iraq and how many of them were on their way home for leave. You just gave the enemy everything he needs to find and wipe out your position. The spooks I know take the idea of not giving up such clues to the extreme.

Of course we are all old and retired, so maybe things have changed.

[The Wild One]

O well private armies can do more than the cia anyways.. No strings is more advantageous to the gov these days than you may realize plus the private sector can get the job done better than the military in allot of cases. The goverment never moves forward as a unit so much as it just sits around waiting for sh*t to happen or can't because leadership won't make decisions without political approval. Just look at the Romans they had the right idea.. Caesar ring any bells ;)

Give it a few more years and you'll see wealthy people buying navies, and armies up

[Sincerelee]

Rode, that's not the case in DC. If you work for the government, but can't say what, it's like mentioning in Miami that you have a mansion in Palm Beach.

Wild, the one thing about the military is that most are in for love of country. A rel;atively small percentage will serve for a dollar. Of those who would sign up for the money, many will be ineffective once the fighting starts. Noone wants to die for the profits of another person.

[The Wild One]

I'm sure everyone understands the idea of fighting for your country. Yet once you fight for your country and realize that your not fighting for your country necessarily then what? The more and more politicians keep sending our boys off to die for blatant lies the more and more the idea of fighting for a private man who has your personal ideas in his head will become more and more popular.

Also many who fight in the military as enlisted men are fighting for a better life. Not just the country, and when the country sh*ts all over its fighting men like it does today then your going to see men spring up with armies. Armies that like them because they don't f*ck around, pay them better, and get the job done right. Period

Also the officer training in college is lacking.. I would rather see officers recruited strait out of the enlisted ranks to the officer status than automatically be given it because ma and pa had some money. They got a degree in weaving baskets now they control the lives in War of a ton of 18 years kids. Then people wonder why the enlisted guys hate the officers. Now their are allot of great officers but you know what I'm talking about.. Weather people want to face this fact or not is up to them. Now the academies that's a whole different story..

This is no shot or any military of government in particular but just because you where the same uniform that people have worn over and over again it doesn't mean your still fighting for the same things. The Uniform doesn't make you a warrior it's the heart of those fighting that does. A great warrior will kill you in any uniform weather it be a nice suit or battle dress. People say war isn't about who's right but who's left standing but karma will prove to be a bitch for those who make it the dirty way and they will pay in blood eventually or their children will trust that.

Money and superior tech will only protect you for so long. Give that to a another man and god only knows what could or would happen to a country lacking in its leadership. Eventually another person may have the money, tech and the leadership necessary to do whatever he wants.. Who knows when it will happen but I'm very sure it will.

[Sincerelee]

People join for all sorts of reasons, yet, the idea of being a mercenary is not that appealing to most people. The myth of mercenaries sounds cool...getting paid huge bucks to shoot guns, fly to exotic places to kil exotic people and blow up exotic mudhuts. The reality of gettign shot at, left for dead, less than adequate intel, the idea of getting captured and drug through the streets and hung from a bridge while being drawn and quartered, turns the average joe off.

If that's your thing, go for it. Keep your head low.

What you describe though, was a basis for the "Solo" in the Cyberpunk genre of gaming and fiction literature. Working for Macrosoft and dying for a paycheck is easy to accept when you are playing make believe, but when you only get one shot to make a mistake is too much for me...unless the reason for the fight is worth it. Fighting for the USA is reason enough for me. Fighting for a buck isn't.

[Rodehard]

it's like mentioning in Miami that you have a mansion in Palm Beach.

If you do that no one believes you.

Private armies.... Blackwater and other private armies, lack the controls that the military has in place as well as the accountability. My brothers have been explaining the rules of engagement they have to deal with. No wonder we are still in Iraq. I wold like to see the military have the freedom Blackwater does, but still have the accountability it currently does.

When Grenada went down Regan went out did his press conference with the whole "Diplomatic solutions" spew,then walked into the Oval Office where the joint chiefs were waiting and said 3 words "Whatever force necessary". Because of that leeway there is now a Time Life Book called "Grenada, what the Marines did for the rest of the weekend" LOL. We hit them hard and fast with overwhelming force, just like desert storm, But we still had accountability. We could not shoot women and children, torture, rape etc. without knowing that the punishments would be swift and sever.

Also as Sun Tzu says "One man fighting for his home is worth 100 men fighting for their pay check." Afghanistan, Vietnam, Turkey, and many other countries prove this to be true.

[The Wild One]

A private Army could be affective fighting on the behalf of a government. Right now is not the time it will happen but I predict in the not to distant future for this to start to happen gradually. America is modeled after the Roman republic and it's only natural for it to take that shift at one point. I believe the private sector can produce if properly driven a better army than the best ones working for governments today. They just need the right type of leadership, and political setting.

Political divides, corruption, and desperate times will lead to this phase in our development.. The private sector with the right money will be able to better equip, and move troops.. As the world unifies men will become wealthy enough to make it happen. Right now they simply don't have the money but eventually they will.

Also further expansion in fields like space exploration, and the money to buy a navy will be expensive. So it will take a very powerful person but I believe their will be people in the future with the ability to see it threw.

[Sincerelee]

Wild, last figure I heard, several years ago, was that a merc costs $50K for just his pay. Add in housing, transport, supplies, equipment, and all other expenses and you are talking over $75K maybe $100K.

And, that is for the grunt. A grunt with skills is going to cost you.

But, having said that, Bill Gates, at $50Billion could support an army of 10,000 men for approximately 7 years if he spent every penny he had on them.

Microsoft has almost 100,000 employees. So, a 10,000 army would mean one in ten. But, realistically, he might be able to swing $5Billion per year which means only a 1000 men army. Or, 1 to 100. I hardly think of 1000 guys as an army. Maybe a militia. And, again, once the fighting starts, many are going to run away.

The only way to get them to stay would be through mental control...boosting the cost WAY up.

Want proof of the limited willingness to fight. Examine the armies of botht eh Confederacy and the Union during our Civil War. Men on both sides refused to fight outside their own state.

[The Wild One]

Well time will tell. The fact is men have been convincing men to fight the same way I'm describing for along time. Also if hired by a private contract to serve your own country in a fight you'd technically just be a better paid soldier. Theirs allot of prior service guys that would love to do it trust me that are already battle hardened. The Romans used mercenaries in a big way also in their military in every legion for the most part. It's a fairly old idea and despite what you think many men will do it. Also theirs already private armies with the same amount of men your talking about and their making loads of cash... Their just the beginning of this kinda thing.

[Rodehard]

Well time will tell. The fact is men have been convincing men to fight the same way I'm describing for along time. Also if hired by a private contract to serve your own country in a fight you'd technically just be a better paid soldier. Theirs allot of prior service guys that would love to do it trust me that are already battle hardened. The Romans used mercenaries in a big way also in their military in every legion for the most part. It's a fairly old idea and despite what you think many men will do it. Also theirs already private armies with the same amount of men your talking about and their making loads of cash... Their just the beginning of this kinda thing.

When I left EOD in 1992 several private companies tried to recruit me starting at $325K plus expenses. Most SF's won't work for cash companies. Honor is cannot be bought.

Anyway back to Aliens... Did anyone see that special on Stanton T. Friedman Stanton is a very smart man, and I respect him, but his research jumps over providing proof and claims things are true. He reminds me of Jan Hendrik Schön, but at least Schön faked his research to make it look legitimate.

Stanton's research is based on "he said she said" what kind of proof is this for anything.

[The Wild One]

There's a ton of SF guys involved?! Anyways this argument is never ending so ...

I dunno much about the Stanton guy so I'll have to check into him before I theorize anything on that.

[Rodehard]

There's a ton of SF guys involved?! Anyways this argument is never ending so ...

I dunno much about the Stanton guy so I'll have to check into him before I theorize anything on that.

What is your MOS?

[Sincerelee]

What is your MOS?

I know you were asking Wild, but...mine was 19D - Recon Scout. 194th Air/Cav. Trained at Fort Knox. But, most of my internals of the military is from my work with the guys at the Army hospital and my time at the Pentagon.

[The Wild One]

I'm not going to get to into my job. We didn't call it MOS I wasn't an Army guy.. I did anti narcotics, human trafficking, search and rescue, and counter terrorism. Worked with the CIA arresting terrorists, and doing many of the jobs listed mostly arresting people before arriving to the US with homeland security. Their you go.. I have some pretty interesting stories about that I can't talk about yet and threw all my encounters I've seen honor blemished on all sides so in my own view a private army with the right men could be a very good thing. Mix politics, people, and conflict then anyone can be susceptible to corruption it brings out the worst in those who aren't ready to face those challenges. New directions must be looked at when the possibility arises that the people of a country could have their rights taken from them by totally corrupt political leadership and corruption within the military itself.. Thus this kind of direction is not seeing any problems in recruitment.

I'm going to hop off this topic. I will not answer any more questions regarding this... Lets focus on the main point of the thread. Which was does life exist outside of this world. Most believe it does

[Sincerelee]

Wild, I do not appreciate you disparaging our military. Like Donnie Osmond said, "One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl." When you have 500,000 people together, of varying educations, privileges, and moral codes, you must expect some less than savory behavior. It does not mean honorable men are dishonored.

I understand you may be jaded because of your work, but do not paint a picture with one brush.

[The Wild One]

I'm not jaded just not delusional enough not to see reality. Once you have private armies and politicians using them on their behalf to work for the American people you see the Republic flip into exactly the same force the Roman Republic became before it's Imperial stage. It's happening that's all I'm saying.. It's not wrong to say the military isn't a perfect machine or question how it works. Otherwise you turn a blind eye to problems that need to be fixed, and if nobody does anything then we will continue on the course I've highlighted. I.E. High ranking officers being bought off, and blatant cover ups of important things people in the country should be aware of for one.

It's why this flip will occur this sort of stuff and military men seeing it go unpunished plus the people of the country being made aware of it.

Also I'm not trying to paint a bad picture. Most of the guys working are honorable and great guys but in certain areas this isn't always the case. I'll keep my mouth shut but just don't be surprised when these predictions become everyday realities. I don't look at it really in terms of good or bad from my perspective its people in large mass going threw phases it's not right or wrong really just it is what it is.

[Rodehard]

Airborne, Air Assault, or based on HMMWV? I worked with some 19D30s once. They could hold their own pretty well.

MOS 2336 MCAGCC 29 Palms here. The re-enlistment bonus is $80,000 now for EOD. There is a saying in EOD, When Recon wants a Challenge they come try out for EOD. As for why anyone would do it, “Do you want to walk up to an IED that you know is there, or do you want to walk up to an IED you don’t know is there? "

[Rodehard]

Wild----- Challenge !

If you are who you say you are you will know the correct answer to this. If not you are a AFC Poser.

Trivial question where is CIA headquarters located at?

You are aware that the CIA does not conduct ops with Homeland Security right? CIA cannot conduct Operations on US Soil. CIA was formed by the National Security Act of 1947, and answers to the DCI. (Leon E. Panetta ) By National Security Act of 1947 and By direction of the president in Executive Order 12333 of 1981 and in accordance with procedures approved by the Attorney General, the CIA is restricted from domestic operations. If the CIA conducts an operation on domestic soil, the FBI will treat it as a Felony. Granted this is a pissing contest, but it is necessary.

If you will recall the terrorist busts in Miami 2 years ago were uncovered by the CIA overseas, and forwarded to the FBI and Miami-Dade LEOs.

If you check DHS's site their charter prevents them from taking action outside the Country. While the CIA and DHS share information, they do not run ops together. At the 2 mile limit, the CIA hands off to DHS, FBI, NSA, DCI and vice versa.

[The Wild One]

I never specified what I actually did and I wasn't on US soil. Rodehard your facts are wrong just like everything else you've put out thus far regarding Nasa etc.. If you don't believe the CIA works with homeland security your simply nuts. I'm sorry bro

Go talk with all your SF buddies, and your sources.. :rolleyes:

Late 05 oil tankers, saudi arabian owned ports why was that a big freakin deal? You don't know do you? Ask your "source" about it and see if you can get the truth out of him.Yeah I'm done here.. You two chat together as much as you wish.

Homeland security was created after 9-11 so the different agencies could communicate and operate in coordination with one another to do exactly what it is they need to get done. How can't you grasp that concept, good luck with your career.. Happy holidays I really feel if that's beyond you continuing any further with logic is fruitless.

Plus where and how operations are coordinated depends largely on what the heck you're doing! Come visit me in Charlotte we can all discuss it you me, marines, ex navy seal buddies, and have a ball. As for continuing this chat on a public forum obviously I have to end it with you, but I will talk to you privately. Only in private off record will you get anything else.. It is what it is, and trust me even then I'll only give you a bone to play with at most.

Thanks

[Rodehard]

I was at a club a few months back where a guy was claiming to be a SEAL. I mentioned his Budweiser making him look queer. He said he thought Coors was for limp dicks. See Budweiser refers to the SEALS Trident, had he been a SEAL he would have reacted much differently saying it made him look queer. When I said "Challenge" it was obvious he was an AFC poser. Had he been Special Operations Capable, in any service or intel, (SF in layman's terms) he would have responded in a very particular way, and I would have been buying drinks for his group all night because he answered correctly. Since he did not I dressed him down till he was crying and peed his pants.

Pedophiles and ass pirates, (gay rapists) deserve better treatment than posers who claim to be elite. 11% of those who go out for Recon make it through 1st time. EOD may be more challenging than SF's training, but I would never claim to be one of them out of respect for the men who wear the insignia.

Not knowing what Challenge is, not knowing where the CIA is headquartered, prove you are a liar and a poser.

What amazes me is is how guys like you get blown out and stick to thier fantasy. My info, the infor I posted here came from NASA, CIA, NSA, Official web sites. Everyone here can look it up and see you are a liar and a poser, yet you keep on pretending. What a waste of 300,000,000 sperm.

[Sincerelee]

Rode, Coors is for limp dicks. ;) Only Guiness, Killians, and PBR are acceptable beers.

Marine Recon is hard. NG Recon is just a matter of being dumb enough to want it.

[The Wild One]

Dude any moron can figure out where the cia headquarters is... like theirs just one place they operate out of.:rolleyes:

Honestly I think you're not at all associated with the military in any way. Your challenge is a joke that any guy with a little common sense can figure out it proves nothing. I can't talk about anymore without getting into legal trouble so this is over.

It's my belief rode that your probably not in the military at all and sincerely strikes me as another guy that might rather pray for action to take place to win then actually get something logically moving forward to find a solution to real problems. I'm not here to prove myself to you and if you are in fact a civilian playing games I'd advise you to stay away from me.

If you are actually military you really need to start seeing the big picture and if you've been retired for a long time it's not the same as it was in 90's.

Sorry if my opinions aren't your own, but we obviously disagree time will tell who is right in the end on these issues.

[Rodehard]

Dude you have been outted give it up.

[Rodehard]

Rode, Coors is for limp dicks. ;) Only Guiness, Killians, and PBR are acceptable beers.

Marine Recon is hard. NG Recon is just a matter of being dumb enough to want it.

I don't drink beer. Budweiser is a nick name for the Seals Trident.

[Sincerelee]

sincerely strikes me as another guy that might rather pray for action to take place to win then actually get something logically moving forward to find a solution to real problems.

Is anyone else confused by this statement?

I think you are saying i prefer action taking place so that we can wion something, rather than inaction and losing...I think I agree with you.

And that I prefer being a cheerleader when we get aggressive against a known enemy, instead of being introspective and seeing problems within ourselves as a unified people...but, I am not sure. But, if that is what you meant, then you are totally worng.

What you should see is that I see our military as having one role. Destroy things and kill enemies. Anything ther than that is using a destructive tool sor social engineering. That would be like using a sniper rifle to drill holes...if in the hands of an expert, it can be done, but was never intended for that purpose.

Given the simple task as I stated, corruption would be limited, because it is simple to verify...Is the enemy dead? Is his hideout now a stack of toothpicks? Then job well done.

When they are assigned social tasks, they do it, because they are told to, but there are people who do a much better job at that. the only reason our military does those things is because they have the manpower to do it, and that power does what it is told, unlike the average non-military organizaion.

But, let's talk about aliens. We have more proof of God's existance than we do aliens, yet you gladly accept the possibility of aliens, but reject God altogether. That makes no sense.

[Sincerelee]

I don't drink beer. Budweiser is a nick name for the Seals Trident.

I know you don't drink beer. Coors should hang its head in shame to sully the name "beer" by putting it on the can.

I only knew about Bud and the SEALs from your story. A friend of mine joined the SEALs back in 85 or 86. He was a little wimp when he left for training. he came back looking like he could bench press a waterbuffalo.

[Rodehard]

Come to think of it, it was Coors that the crew I hung out with in High School drank. I tried it, it tasted like warm horse piss smells, and that turned me off to beer.

Personaly I always prayed before HAHO jumps and SPIE riggings.

Back on subject:

As everyone knows one of there claims for why Aliens could not visit Earth is the vast distances they would require them to have travel faster than light travel to get here and E=MC2 says FTL is impossible.

The exact same laws that prevent FTL also prevent “cloaking” objects like you see in Star Trek etc. Dr. Michio Kaku is one of the foremost theoretical physicists on the planet and one his specialty is the physics of light. For years he, as well as every other physicist on the Planet, including myself has quoted the same chapter and verse that cloaking is impossible. You cannot bend light around an abject and then bring it back together.
.
We were all wrong. Duke University has done it and others have reproduced it. They have only done it on the micro scale, and with one wavelength, but that is irrelevant. Extrapolating this backwards, if we can wrap light around an object, then at least in theory FTL is possible. Time dilation would still occur and it would take a massive amount of power, but it can be done.

If we extrapolate this finding to an alien species who was not held back by religion, superstitions etc. and who was created on the same day as humans, they could easily have FTL travel and a way around time dilation.

[Sincerelee]

I have grown to expect all theories of science to have flaws. At the time E=MC2 was written, the thought was that light was a constant. In the lab, scientists have been able to slow its speed down significantly. I don't remember the university where it took place. It was many years ago. I am sure they posted the findings ont he internet.

[Rodehard]

I have grown to expect all theories of science to have flaws. At the time E=MC2 was written, the thought was that light was a constant. In the lab, scientists have been able to slow its speed down significantly. I don't remember the university where it took place. It was many years ago. I am sure they posted the findings ont he internet.

They can actually stop it now, and "blue light" coming out of a Nuclear Power plant travels faster than light, hence the blue shift.

What would ET's arrival do to mankind?

We are so blind we cannot see the truth. I have had actual contact with an alien less than 48 hours ago. He was short, about 5"2", brown skinned, with straight black hair, dark eyes and stubby fingers. He continually babbled in some strange language I could not understand. He disappeared for a moment, then returned with my Big Mac and medium fries.

[The Wild One]

You two need to check out the private message feature in the forum. Rode as far as being outted I appreciate your efforts to "challenge me". In the future I can promise both of you one thing.. Sincerely I'll be in Washington DC with a delta force guy tomorrow at a place called the Museum. If you have an questions you can show up, and for rode well it would be in your best interest to never meet me. You guys keep up the good work..:rolleyes:

[The Wild One]

Still no message from you sincerely I'm dissapointed. This is for the both of you inspring military minds.:rolleyes: I would love for you whenever you wish to face of with me in the field in military games. It's my theory that with your current resources, and vast military knowledge you'll be beaten fairly easily. I'll even do it on an Army base or if you want we could do a little challenge like this with the Marines. Last time I did a battle simulation with Army guys was a few years back but I do remember sneaking up to within five feet of a army ranger officer and shooting him in the back in broad daylight in wooded NC. So I hope you can do better I'll set it up if you both are interested and we can meet face to face to discuss these little misunderstandings. Also if you wouldn't mind additional training we can practice hand to hand combat after the field excercises...

I'm serious on this so private message me.. May the best man win, and face to face you'll find with the company I keep this isn't a game to me. Private message me... Or you can keep ruining the thread with your pointless conversation that serves only to push both your christian faiths on this thread. I hope in your service you both weren't intolerant of others not of your faith in your service.. Many so called honorable men are.. Me I just like the battle against religious conservatives but I have no borders or boundries. I would rather be an equal oppertunity religious conservative butt kicker and my atheism makes me more capable than most at doing that better than the next guy.

Let me remind you for a third time private message guys ok.. I don't care to put our conversation all over the thread because I think it's stupid. I know this is probably not obvious to you because your both obviously extremely smart guys but despite your amazing foresight it is actually stupid so... Private Message me and we can see if your worth a damn in a fight. Or you can show me what your really made of and continue your chating.. I hope you accept

[Sincerelee]

Slow your roll, there, Brando! First. If you had given me a greater heads up, I would have gladly met you. Not to do military challenges, though. I was a recon scout, not a military mastermind. But, I love our military, and talking crap about it bothers me.

Next time you are in town, give me a week's notice and we'll do lunch. I work near Metro Center, and there are lots of places to eat, or we can meet up in Chinatown. I mean, you didn't give me time to shave, and put on my best aftershave and that sexy black dress I have been wanting to wear!:D

Today is NYE. My choices are, spend time with a guy wanting to prove he's the real deal, or spending time with friends ready to party, and a woman ready to please.

Sorry I didn't see your post until today. You should have PMed me. I don't read this thread every day. There's too much fussing over things that don't matter. As for bringing my Christianity into this, of all responses you could expect from the Christian perspective, you would not find a more congenial, yet firm-in-my-belief reply than mine.

[The Wild One]

Well I'm talking to military guys not civilians here private message me I'd rather talk about it privately not publically. Can't express that more...

When I talk to civilians I'm not going to diss the military at all and if they do it's a problem. Yet when I talk to military guys I always will express things I think could be changed or improved upon. Seeing that you both say your military guys that's not a problem. This whole thread has gone ass backwards but no matter..

Please don't take offense to my aggresive nature in this writting I'm always fighting with someone. I'm a guy but old fashioned I fight with one guy then can be friends with him five minuits later. I got into a bar brawl with a bunch of marines a few months ago and we were buying each other drinks a few minuits later.. That's kinda how I am .. I fight with women like this also except I don't hit them I just won't hesitate to tell her what I think happy, sad, or whatever...

Also on the war games idea I have access to allot of very very very bad ass weapons so you might want to think about that answer.. :)

[Rodehard]

You two need to check out the private message feature in the forum. Rode as far as being outed I appreciate your efforts to "challenge me". In the future I can promise both of you one thing.. Sincerely I'll be in Washington DC with a delta farce guy tomorrow at a place called the Museum. If you have an questions you can show up, and for rode well it would be in your best interest to never meet me. You guys keep up the good work..:rolleyes:

Will you be making love to him.... your Delta Farce guy..... dose he have a name or will you give him one once you blow him up and install the batteries.

Oh wait it was a threat... sorry I missed that.....why is it that I suddenly have this deep dark terrifying feeling in the pit of my stomach, and I am trembling in my boots, hell I may wet myself."

Dude you can't even use spell check in your posts.. I am really really scared.

OR one you hears everyday.... Paper please, plastic is bad for the planet.

All you had to do to prove me wrong is know what challenge means. Or know where CIA HQ was. If you worked for them you would know.

Okay here is an easy one, how many names and stars are on the wall?

Finally, when you out a poser you don't do i tin private, you do it in public so everyone at the forum a can share in his humiliation.

[Rodehard]

For those of you not familiar with USOs, they are like UFO's but under water. I know Marines in Guantanamo Bay that have seen them first hand, and recently what MAY be the remains of a city 2,000 ft under the ocean off Cuba's coast has been found.

We know more about the moon than our own oceans, and there are places so deep we cannot visit them. In addition a large % of UFOs are said to appear over or near water.

What do you think the possibility is that the UFO's are not from another world, but that they are a race that co-developed here on earth starting out long before us? If that were the case all the problems with FTL and multidimensional travel would not apply.

I would think that Occam's razor , entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, (entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof) that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one applies here.

If FTL is impossible, and If UFOs are really piloted by another life form the simplest answer is they evolved here before we did. I started thinking about this because a guy I used to work with and still stay in touch with, kept quoting Bible verses about life on the earth under the earth, and in the oceans as if they were other races.

Thoughts?

[The Wild One]

Don't care everyone knows I'm a sloppy writer. Rode don't get mad because I can give you a challenge you can't just wiki search on the internet to answer..

[Rodehard]

Don't care everyone knows I'm a sloppy writer. Rode don't get mad because I can give you a challenge you can't just wiki search on the internet to answer..

So did your Delta Farce guy make you all tingly inside.

wiki search--- see that is the thing here you tell such outlandish lies that anyone can wiki search and know you are lying. At least do some research before you make like Barney and pretend.

I cut and pasted this from the US Army Delta site: While the military acknowledges the existence of special mission units like Delta Force, it does not specify what they are called or their locations, staffing or organizational structure. The identity of units and identity of unit members is deemed Top Secret but the DOD. Unofficially, Delta Force is considered one of the U.S. military's elite special operations units, its members drawn from all branches. END QUOTE


So your buddy and now you have knowingly willingly and with intent violated the National Security Act, as well as the Top Secret nature of Delta and Seal Team 6, violated the many non-disclosure agreements signed and who know what else. As this constitutes a clear and present threat to National Security, and a FELONY perhaps you should detain yourself and send yourself to Gitmo.

As much fun as has been exposing you, this thread keeps getting off topic. 300 million sperm and you are the best your mom and brother could do?

Lets keep this on topic now, no sense in arguing with delusional posers. I'm going to put you on ignore.... Now go whining to your dad/brother. They will tell you that you are a liar and a poser.

[The Wild One]

I never identified anyone. Dude you really are the smartest kid I know. :rolleyes: lol I said I'd be somewhere with one person in the midst of hundreds of people. So whatever man your a coward period if you want to meet face to face and settle it like a man fine you can. Or you can call me a liar, waste of sperm, spread your conservative agenda, and keep dumbing down the truth. I really do hope your going to ignore me.. I'll just have to ignore the fact your probably some 12 year old kid with pimples playing on his pc. FYI - I know delta guys threw other military people never said I worked with anyone specifically, what I do, or anything really for a good reason. I hint at it then you can make your own mind up. You literally have the smallest idea you could about anything concerning these things.. Your about as smart as the guy who wants to bring back racial profiling to solve the last terrorism incident in the US not realizing our Commander in Chief is a black democrat... You keep up the good work my friend defending the world from the truth and living in your world.. My theory is your reality is about as real as Adam Sandlers happy place in Happy Gilmore.

Go post some letters, and tell em say hi to the leprecon in afghanistan. I bet you watch fox news, and have some sort of possible crush on Bill O'reilly this guy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FARDDcdFaQ - Here's some O'reilly for ya don't get to aroused my friend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up-lPa3DrrI - See the military guys I like are guys like this who are freakin very very upset about being lied to and ya they are all terrorists! If they're not white, don't believe in Christ, and don't vote with the republican party... Man Rode you must really be brainwashed if you can't put these pieces to the puzzle togather or your just really not smart at all. I dunno which man but you really need to get a clue how the world works, vs. what your told in the media which is run by small groups of rich men. Yes the goverment lies to the public I know I've been witness to it! They lie not only to the public but to the military men also.. So my belief in the UFO theory comes from knowing this very obvious fact.

Appreciate the ignore buddy guess this means we aren't friends anymore aww I'm so concerned.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnwvZcb9EEM

[Rodehard]

I really do hope your going to ignore me.. ..... I know delta guys threw other military people never said I worked with anyone specifically, Commander in Chief is a Ni---- democrat...

What the hell does the color of his skin have to do with anything? I may not agree with the guy, but color is irrelevant to the quality of man he is.

By DOD it is a violation of National Security to acknowledge you are Delta Force or Seal Team 6. If your buddy told you he was Delta, either he was lying to get in your pants again, or he meant delta faucets, the guys who fix your plumbing. Did he fix your plumbing?

You don't want me to ignore you, you are attracted to me...which makes you a racist, homosexual, poser with without enough self-confidence to walk away when someone is jacking with him.

N 25' 45.385' W 80' 45.994' 2200 120201. Bring live ammo.

[Rodehard]

Glad to see you removed the N word from your post. Very manly of you.

[The Wild One]

lol hahaha no body said anything or did they say anything.. Nobody to my knowledge has told me specifically that information. Maybe they did maybe the didn't .. Do you understand how this community works... No :rolleyes: Unlike you I can figure it out without the wiki search and not worry about being told or breakin any law in knowing who does or doesn't do what. So..

Man your from MIAMI geese bro that's crazy... Get a compass, map, and walk till you reach the Army Special Forces Waterborne Operations Division (SFWOD) it's just a jump from cuba or hell man if your that high speed go till you get to Git Mo. It's the most boring place on earth and you'd fit in perfect. Judging from this entire series of actions .. O yeah I'm racist lol because liberal democrats are known for being racist.. Go watch fox news and stop joking with me.

P.S. When I make fun of you and you respond with the same joke man you're really not being original. Just so you know..

[azazels_wolf]

OK guys, this is getting way too hostile. I am moving this thread to Fight Club, and will post the same reminder here as in the other thread:

I ask that, from this point onward, we all try to keep this discussion as respectful and tolerant as possible. I know this is a sensitive and inflammatory topic, but there is absolutely no need for insults or personal degradation or attack of any kind.

So, a reminder for anyone who participates: you can debate the validity of another person's information or belief, but you should not, under any circumstances, attack the value of another human being on this thread.

Thank you in advance for your efforts to keep this on track. And it will be much more productive this way.

[Rodehard]

Thank you in advance for your efforts to keep this on track. And it will be much more productive this way.

You are correct sir. I apologize for behaving like a manner beneath the PUA community.

What do you think the probability is that there are advanced life forms on Earth, (USO), or on nearby planets and moons (Under Io's ice)

[azazels_wolf]

Thank you, it is much appreciated.

Have you guys seen Admiral Richard Byrd's diary entry on his Antarctica expedition, in which he describes an encounter with UFOs and an advanced civilization?

http://www.reversespins.com/byrd.html

[Rodehard]

Thank you, it is much appreciated.

Have you guys seen Admiral Richard Byrd's diary entry on his Antarctica expedition, in which he describes an encounter with UFOs and an advanced civilization?

http://www.reversespins.com/byrd.html

A guy I used to work with told me about this, so I looked into it. It is an amazing story. As I understand it Byrd was a national hero until he started talking about what he saw, then he was insane. They also now deny he ever made the flight he says he did and that the diary was his.

He was an Admiral, there is no way he was a glory seeker, liar or insane.

Further there is the 16th century map that shows Antarctica free of ice and with rivers, etc. It also shows that the rivers and mountains of S. America. It has been confirmed by several reliable museums to be real, and it is accurate to the coast of an ice free Antarctica. A map dated 18 years later shows an ice covered pole.

Maybe the people there used the ice to keep us from bothering them? 2 mile thick ice in 18 years seems a bit unnatural?

[Sincerelee]

Maybe the people there used the ice to keep us from bothering them? 2 mile thick ice in 18 years seems a bit unnatural?

And maybe penguins are evolved guard dogs.

I hardly believe anything like ideas of this sort...without proof beyond questionable mappings that may have been the random drawings of an early Dungeons and Dragons dungeon master....and the suppositions of men whom we know not the motivations for such tales.

The good admiral was a primitive man by today's measure. At his time, he may have been fascinated by the watercloset.

I would rather we focus on finding Atlantis...proving its existance first. Demostrating the existance of a more easily attained civilization would prove cheaper and more fruitful.

The ice at the polar extremes can be proven by natural physics too readily.

[azazels_wolf]

Sincerelee, have you seen the Oronteus Finaeus map? It clearly depicts Antarctica in 1531, but it wasn't "discovered" until 1818.

http://www.astraltraveler.com/mysteres/oronteus-finaeus.html

[Sincerelee]

AW, interesting. Being a hobbyist in cartography, coming from my before mentioned DM times, I will look further into this.

I have a couple questions. First is the authentication of the map. Second, North America doe not appear on the map at all. South America is clearly seen, but nothing of North America.

Also, Antartica has been know for a long time, anyone sailing around Africa would see the coastline of Antartica...at least the ice from it.

[Rodehard]

And maybe penguins are evolved guard dogs.

No they'd have to have misses attached to them like in Batman, OR lasers like in Austin Powers.

[/QUOTE]I hardly believe anything like ideas of this sort...without proof beyond questionable mappings that may have been the random drawings of an early Dungeons and Dragons dungeon master...[/QUOTE]

Requiring proof is good... look up the map on line... It has been independently verified by several Museums, including the Smithsonian as authentic as to when it was made, and that the outline of the continent under the ice exactly matches what is on the map. Plus the South American portion of the map shows the rives and mountains of SA, with GPS accuracy which had supposedly not been explored at the time of the maps being drawn.

[/QUOTE]The good admiral was a primitive man by today's measure. At his time, he may have been fascinated by the water closet. [/QUOTE]

He explored Antarctica in 1947.. hardly a long enough ago to call the US armed forces who went with him, primitive. watercloset, that's Brit for toilet? We had those in the mid 1800's.

[/QUOTE]I would rather we focus on finding Atlantis...[/QUOTE]


Bruce Gernons's has a story related to Atlantis . He says he flew from Andros Island (Bahamas) to Miami in 30 mins because of a magic cloud that transported him through time. There is a long story with all kind of theories, religions and explanations tied to this story, but the one that I like... the Andros Island tower log shows he left an hour earlier than he claims he did. That makes the 30 min trip actual take the 1 1/2 hours it should have taken. Funny how facts trash the holiest of beliefs. Still people say that the tower logs, radar, etc. were all faked to cover up what happened. It was years before his story went public. How would the airport have known to fake something a decade in advance?

Not to pick on you, you are very educated and logical in your posts... but just point out something. Atlantis is a 10 line paragraph in Plato. From that we have built a huge space faring civilization with technologies that dwarf our own. This is a huge jump. 3 major problems with the Atlantis story. Plato claimed that it was larger than "Libya and Asia together" Simple water displacement shows us that this is not possible.

1. Massive waves. Assuming that the island is similar to the Canary Islands, when it fell into the ocean it would have created waves. Estimates range from 1000M to 2 Km high radiating outward. These would leave evidence in the fossil record. We can still see the evidence of the 80,000 BC Krakatoa eruption which was much smaller than Atlantis. One of the islands in the Canary's is expected to erupt in the near future and slide into the ocean. Its smaller than Rode Island, and will created a 1000' wave when it hits the US. Imagine what an island the size of Atlantis would have done.

2. Water displacement, assuming Atlantis was similar to the other small Islands in the area (Canary etc.) and it was the size of Libya and Asia together, when it sank beneath the ocean in one day and night, it would raise ocean levels world wide by 80' to 400' (estimates) overnight. Again there is no evidence of this in the fossil record to support this.

Also legend says that Atlantis existed 10,000 BC. This contradicts the Atlantis vs. Athens part of the Legend. Atlantis sank after loosing a battle to Athens. Athens did not exist 10,000 BC.


[/QUOTE]The ice at the polar extremes can be proven by natural physics too readily.[/QUOTE]

But can it be shown to do so in 18 years? There are documents accounts of people being there in the 1600's with no ice, and 18 years later there was 2 miles of ice? I really don't know the answer to this. Can a continent go from sub tropical to 2 miles of ice in 18 years? Polar shift maybe?

[azazels_wolf]

AW, interesting. Being a hobbyist in cartography, coming from my before mentioned DM times, I will look further into this.

I have a couple questions. First is the authentication of the map. Second, North America doe not appear on the map at all. South America is clearly seen, but nothing of North America.

Also, Antartica has been know for a long time, anyone sailing around Africa would see the coastline of Antartica...at least the ice from it.

As far as I know, it is authentic. This is another map by Finaeus, also showing recognizable features of Antarctica, as well as the Americas in their entirety:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-heart-054.jpg

You may also be interested in this New York Times article in which some of these Antarctica maps are discussed, by the vice chancellor for academic affairs at the University of Colorado

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/09/25/science/new-analysis-hints-ancient-explorers-mapped-antarctic.html?&pagewanted=all

[azazels_wolf]

1. Massive waves. Assuming that the island is similar to the Canary Islands, when it fell into the ocean it would have created waves. Estimates range from 1000M to 2 Km high radiating outward. These would leave evidence in the fossil record. We can still see the evidence of the 80,000 BC Krakatoa eruption which was much smaller than Atlantis. One of the islands in the Canary's is expected to erupt in the near future and slide into the ocean. Its smaller than Rode Island, and will created a 1000' wave when it hits the US. Imagine what an island the size of Atlantis would have done.


There is geologic evidence for mega-tsunamis all over the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatsunami



2. Water displacement, assuming Atlantis was similar to the other small Islands in the area (Canary etc.) and it was the size of Libya and Asia together, when it sank beneath the ocean in one day and night, it would raise ocean levels world wide by 80' to 400' (estimates) overnight. Again there is no evidence of this in the fossil record to support this.


The Great Flood / Deluge myth exists all over the world, often with common themes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth

SOMETHING happened....



Also legend says that Atlantis existed 10,000 BC. This contradicts the Atlantis vs. Athens part of the Legend. Atlantis sank after loosing a battle to Athens. Athens did not exist 10,000 BC.


If I recall correctly, Atlantean-era Athens was said to have been wiped out in the Flood, and then refounded later on by Actaeus and Cecrops, according to Plato.



But can it be shown to do so in 18 years? There are documents accounts of people being there in the 1600's with no ice, and 18 years later there was 2 miles of ice? I really don't know the answer to this. Can a continent go from sub tropical to 2 miles of ice in 18 years? Polar shift maybe?

Maybe not something quite so drastic.... there have been some significant warming and cooling periods in recent history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age#Causes_of_ice_ages

Plus, those maps do not necessarily indicate Antarctica completely ice-free - the coastlines may have been, but the central areas may have already been glaciated.

[Rodehard]

There is geologic evidence for mega-tsunamis all over the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatsunami

True but non within the time frame Atlantis is to have occurred, i.e. the last 12,000 years. If Atlantis sank within the lifetime of Athens, proof of a 1Km to 2 Km, high wave that hit every coast on the Eastern seaboard of the Americas, and every West coast of Africa and Europe would still be evident. For example there should still be a salt water ocean (or evidence of one having been within the last 3,500 to 10,000 years, where the Midwest is now.

The Great Flood / Deluge myth exists all over the world, often with common themes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth

Since we are talking about Atlantis, the flood its sinking would have caused would have had to occur within the last 12,000 years max. That would have put the central plains of the US under water during the time the buffalo roamed free and Native American roamed the land. There is no geological proof of a world wide flood within human history.

If I recall correctly, Atlantean-era Athens was said to have been wiped out in the Flood, and then refounded later on by Actaeus and Cecrops, according to Plato.

In the story of of Atlantis Cecrops I ruled Atlantis 1556 - 1506 BC. If that is true, we would have a time line for the flood and tsunami (above) as post 1556 BC. We know that there was no flood or tsunami meeting the criteria during that time frame.

Plus, those maps do not necessarily indicate Antarctica completely ice-free - the coastlines may have been, but the central areas may have already been glaciated.

True enough. The only proof we have of an 18 year change is based on the Piri Reis map, Phillipe Bauche map, and Finaeus Maps all show Antarctica with flowing rivers. The Bauche map (1737) it shows the land with no ice on it and accurate topography which was only mapped in 1958 when the first seismic survey was done.

Also, Antarctica has been know for a long time, anyone sailing around Africa would see the coastline of Antarctica...at least the ice from it.

The maps clearly show rivers flowing and the topography under the ice. The Bauche map shows a waterway that was proven to exist under 1 mile of ice that divides the continent into 2 land masses.

So we have 4 maps that show an ice free Antarctica with near GPS accuracy all dated 1600 to 1700 AD, and showing geographical makers that are currently under miles of ice.

Here is a photo of why the ice theory does not support an accurate map being possible in an ice covered continent in 1600.
http://www.s8int.com/images/antarctica.jpg

[Sincerelee]

Another question about the Oronteus Finaeus map. It shows four small land masses near the north pole. I was taught in school...early 80s...that there is no land in that area.

[Rodehard]

Another question about the Oronteus Finaeus map. It shows four small land masses near the north pole. I was taught in school...early 80s...that there is no land in that area.

So was I. I don't know why this anomaly exists.

Thoughts: Old map makers supposedly put small flaws in their maps as a signature of sorts. I know that some of the Aleutian islands are now under water that were above water 400 years ago.

What comes to light for me, is how can a guy create a map to include, lakes rivers, mountains, valleys, the fact it is 2 continents not one,etc so accurately it rules out chance, if that land was covered in ice miles thick, that dwarfed the land mass it covered. The only answer I can come up with it we know a lot less about how the planet changes than we think we do.

Small errors are present in GPS maps, so that is not a big deal for me, but it needs explained.

[The Wild One]

Rode and Sincerely: As I said initially their are problems within the structure of the beastly and capable military that the U.S. goverment has. Currently we have been experiencing the relization that many of the old commanders, and intel officers running things from the previous administration have been guided by a neo conservative agenda that takes the Intel out of the Inteligence community. Thus the need for privately skilled workers to help fill that gap has risen, and the current President is very displeased with what has been going on. The conservative agenda which has many religious roots has taken what can be a well oiled military and slowed it up with tons of nonsense. In the next few years look to see a whole lot of changes.

The old intel guys from years back and military guys have seen this softening and it's why private military companies exist today. Primarily because we can take the worlds best military minds and train as one. No political nonsense we can operate independantly, and use better equipment plus training to get the job done. In Yemen private contrators working along side goverment officials have proven vital in this regard because so often we find goverment intel agencies to lack the intellgence capabilities to get the job done properly for political reasons and a combination of poor leadership.

Remember the President and Goverment are totally different guys.. It's a new decade.. I'm glad we have someone running the show who's got the clarity to make the decisions necessary to fix some of these problems and allow us to kick a few buts within our own goverment to fix things. Time to take the gloves off!:cool:

P.S. Also the argument that this is somehow Obama's fault is nonsense the main problem is these old conservative religious nuts within the military, and intel community that are so damn dumb they ruin the entire concept of intelligence. They make the idea of it hilarious..

Note I warned you about these problems, and the results that will come from them will happen as I highlighted. You will see with growing lack of faith the nation turns to new military thinking to protect the country. I promise you'll see a shift much like the Roman Empire.. Every nation goes threw this shift it's like a growing process within the people of a country the only difference is the way our goverment is organized is so much like the Roman Republic our shift will directly mimic that one..

[Sincerelee]

Wild, don't blame the religious right for the sluggishness of the military. It is the social experimentation of the left that has tied the hands of the military.

Women in combat...now having to deal with 60% readiness for combat-support units...is one of the biggest problems.

Rules of engagement so one-sided it's a wonder we win a firefight...which is a testament to how good we are.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell...I am not judgmental of lifestyles, but I know from talking to troops that it is ruining morale when gays are serving next to them, being overtly sexual and nothing is done about it.

[The Wild One]

I can blame religion but not anyone religion it is my belief that religious neo conservative views hinder a military.

Gay's don't pose any threat to the US military. Funny enough I know a Navy Seal who's now a big time police chief who could kick your butt for such a statement. Ya intolerance is a problem that type you speak of is fostered by the current military leadership in place in the Army in particular which I'm glad I never served under.

Women in the military don't pose any threat this view is totally backwards, and wrong. Now specifically in combat roles the fact is women can't in certain roles out perform male counterparts physically. That's a fact which I understand but that doesn't mean they can't out perform males mentally, and strategically. It also doesn't mean a women can't put a bullet down range a hell of allot better than any other human being.

I know why military guys get upset about women specifically because of relationships of the sexual nature which are wrong and should be delt with legally. It shows a lack of strength in the women who can't make it via their performance honestly, and the leadership who can't have the self control to treat the men they lead fairly.

Also before you go talking about women you should consider that ARMY officer that killed all those soldiers in Texas was taken out by a women! A women from North Carolina who was shot several times and saved the lives of many people in doing what she did. You're Army leadership that allows for the mentally stability of it's troops to be handled by a man who will kill everyone on the base shows without doubt theirs problems! This whole lets not deal with the issues, and turn a blind eye is over! It's come time to kick a few asses and you watch it happen cuzz this sorta leadership is over.

These views that you hold sincerely are more moral than strategic and not changing these views show a lack of military knowledge on your part due to your socialized world view.

For your information it's the duty of the men who defend this country to protect all those who represent it. Gay, Republican, Democrat, from all enemies foreign and demestic.. I hate to say it but some of the leadership in the military has forgotten why this republic was founded. It's time for them to go... And theirs allot of other high ranking men who believe that also in the military so I don't stand alone in my views.

[Rodehard]

What does any of this have to do with UFO theory?

[azazels_wolf]

Another question about the Oronteus Finaeus map. It shows four small land masses near the north pole. I was taught in school...early 80s...that there is no land in that area.

Interestingly, not only do both of the Finaeus maps depict those four islands, but so does another North Pole map of 1623:
http://rlv.zcache.com/north_pole_arctic_map_chart_1623_poster-p228644572229929531trma_400.jpg

They are very clearly seen on that one. Wasn't that area also supposed to have been undiscovered/unexplored during that time?

So was it imagination, or, seemingly like Antarctica, knowledge that we temporarily lost - perhaps from earlier times? Perhaps, just like some of the Aleutian islands which disappeared, there are other Arctic islands which no longer exist.

Also, compare the Buache map of 1737, with an early 1800s map.
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Buache_Map.html

Antarctica clearly depicted, vs. no Antarctica. ;)
Perhaps the waterway depicted in the Buache map was also a feature from an earlier time when the ice was not quite so prevalent.

[Rodehard]

So was it imagination, or, seemingly like Antarctica, knowledge that we temporarily lost - perhaps from earlier times?

There have been ice cores dated to 500,000 BC taken from Antarctica, so how could it be ice free in 1600's? And yet we have maps clearly showing an Ice free continent with such accuracy as to rule out chance, which means the cap had to be ice free in human history. Humanity history does not go back anywhere near that far.

Ancient lost knowledge: Have you ever played the sentence game. You take a room full of people start a sentence and see how screwed up it is by the time it gets around the room. Religion is another example of how even written words are changed dramatically over short periods of time.

Even if the map were copied from an older map which was copied from an older map etc. back for 500,000 years the law of diminishing returns would apply. Each later map would be less accurate than its predecessor. After 500,0000 years the maps would be useless.

There is another option although it is far fetched to say the lest. Last night while working I had History Channel on. It was about the 7 Seals of the Revelation. It talked about the ruler from under the sea. Maybe the USO are the missing civilization that gave us the knowledge?

[Sincerelee]

It was about the 7 Seals of the Revelation. It talked about the ruler from under the sea. Maybe the USO are the missing civilization that gave us the knowledge?

No way! The Apostle John predicted Sponge Bob Square Pants as a plague of the end times? :D

[Rodehard]

No way! The Apostle John predicted Sponge Bob Square Pants as a plague of the end times? :D

Can you think of a worse plague..every time my kids watched him I wanted to kill someone.

The Guy I used to work with, Randall, keeps talking about the Bible talking about people who live under the earth, and under the sea. He's kind of obsessive about it, learning old Aerabic, (sp) etc. Of course he also claims the asteroid belt used to be a planet where Satan lived so maybe he is just crazy. Any idea what he is referring to?

Many cultures have stories of "people" coming out of the ocean in "submarines" and doing wonderful things and we know more about the moon than what is in our oceans. Of all the UFO theories, if they are real, the one that makes most sense from a Physics point of view is they are from a co-evolution on earth (or our own solar system) and have enough common sense not to interact with the barbaric child race that man is.

[Sincerelee]

I don't dismiss the possibility. I haven't seen evidence that convinces me that there are other races we do not know about. It's kinda like how in the 19th and early 20th centuies, parts of Africa were rumored to have viscious tribes, huge monsters, and voodoo magic that defied logic.

There was some validity to the claims...cannibals eating human flesh sounded babaric, some huge animals, and the genuine mysterious religious practices were there, but with knowledge, we no longer fear the stories.

It could be there is something below us. Physics says that too far down would be too hot. Too close to the surface would indicate an unstable dwelling due to the violence of the earth's crust.

I mean, look at California, and how it deals with earthquakes. Consider the destruction caused and the lives lost. Now, consider the same situation, but unlike the surface, you have no place to run to get away from natural disasters.

If I were more advanced, I would take the surface and force humans to live under ground.

[Rodehard]

I thought I posted the following last night but I don't see it so forgive me if I duplicate post here:

Sincerelee, as our resident strong in faith Christian, and anyone else:

How would ET making first contact change your faith? My sisters dismiss this as it would be a trick of the devil, like the dinosaurs. (what do you expect they are girls). But dismissing the "trick of the devil" exit ramp, how would your faith be changed by ET.

For me it would prove God's creation is much more wondrous than we ever dreamed.

Proof of ET????

In April, (2001) Louis, a solid-state physicist at Mahatma Gandhi University, published a paper in the prestigious peer-reviewed journal Astrophysics and Space Science in which he hypothesizes that the samples -- water taken from the mysterious blood-colored showers that fell sporadically across Louis's home state of Kerala in the summer of 2001 -- contain microbes from outer space.

Specifically, Louis has isolated strange, thick-walled, red-tinted cell-like structures about 10 microns in size. Stranger still, dozens of his experiments suggest that the particles lack DNA yet still reproduce plentifully, even in water superheated to nearly 600 degrees Fahrenheit . (The known upper limit for life in water is about 250 degrees Fahrenheit .)

Last winter, Louis sent some of his samples to astronomer Chandra Wickramasinghe and his colleagues at Cardiff University in Wales, who have replicated his experiments and confirmed his findings Wickramasinghe expects to publish his initial findings later this year. (2003)

Other theories have implicated fungal spores, red dust swept up from the Arabian peninsula, even a fine mist of blood cells produced by a meteor striking a high-flying flock of bats.

However all these theories, are discounted by the lack of DNA, and of course sand does not reproduce.


A more recent article.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Red_rain_in_Kerala

[Rodehard]

He (God) just needs to put an end to this silliness we call existence so I can know all the answers to everything.

[Sincerelee]

I thought I posted the following last night but I don't see it so forgive me if I duplicate post here:

Sincerelee, as our resident strong in faith Christian, and anyone else:

How would ET making first contact change your faith? My sisters dismiss this as it would be a trick of the devil, like the dinosaurs. (what do you expect they are girls). But dismissing the "trick of the devil" exit ramp, how would your faith be changed by ET.

The existance of ET would not affect my faith at all. My confidence is in the Bible. The Bible is God's interaction with man, and more specifically, His dealing with me as an individual.

As I stated early on, aliens are not part of the curse of man, so they do not need to hear the Gospel. In the possibility that man left this planet, went to another planet, and returned, then they would need the Gospel and I would share it with them, because all humanity is from Adam and Eve, so all men have the same sin nature, no matter where they now live.

Now, about dinosaurs. I recognize that current scientific tests report how they lived millions of year ago. It is probable that thos e tests are correct. There is a possibility that environment has an effect on test results, but are not taken into account in the testing.

But, when you read the account in Genesis, there is evidence that the earth was destroyed in a great conflict, and reformed, between Genisis 1:1 and 1:2. Dinosaurs could have lived then...the prior earth, and that is why they are so far below the surface of the earth. Some believe, including myself, that this is when Satan was cast out of heaven and banished to the earth.

Further evidence of this is that God told Adam and Eve to "replenish" the earth. That indicates that it was once filled, emptied, and they needed to repopulate it.

Another note is that until Adam sinned, He and Eve were immortal. so they were not numbered for age. Adam's age as recorded did not start at his creation, but at the moment he became mortal. having said that, there is no way to determine how long he lived on earth prior to sinning. And, although Adam was to keep the Garden of Eden, and he lived there, there is no verse that I recall that says he was required to stay there.

It is probable that he could roam the entire earth. This is also prior to the world-wide flood, so I am sure he and Eve could roam the earth and do whatever they wanted...so long as they did not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

And, although the rivers are named, and I beleive they are the ones currently named the same, they could be entirely different rivers the entire earth under water after Noah's flood, then drained would change the formation of the earth greatly.

I don't know, because I have not studied this as much, but maybe the names have a meaning and that is what the river names meant...ie: the word "Euphrates" might mean "Big River"...or whatever it translates to from the original name, in which case, it could be any big river, not just the one flowing through Iraq.

Biology I only know from high school. Geology from high school and playing RPGs as the DM. Phisics, i learned by personal study after school, as well as my brother the physics major who became a tech in the Navy. Physics applied a lot in the ealry years of computing(still does) so my work as a PC designer required i know a lot about microphysics. Rode, I am sure with your degree, you are far advanced of my knowledge of physics, so i am not bragging, just full disclosure.

Anyway, having said all that, if you post int he PUA & the Christian thread in my signature, I will answer this further.

[The Wild One]

If you guys look at the sudden extinction of the dinosaurs you must realize life will form easily under the right conditions. It isn't inspired by god but by the nature of the world we live in. The ideas you have from my perspective can easily be proven senseless and from a time when people had very little knowledge to understand the universe.

If the earth hadn't been hit by an atstoide their would be no human life currently on the planet like we see today.

Life like the life that grew on earth has been created threw the universe in a wide variety of forms. We just don't posses the ability until now to find it! Yet we all know it exists and the worlds most intelligent people are spending billions to find it. So I have to look on this with amazement and wait for the day to come when we do find that life. In finding it we have to realize the god's we have worshiped don't exist they're mythical in nature only. They are no more real than Santa Clause, but that doesn't take any beauty out of life. The universe is amazing enough as it is!

Here's how ludacris these religious views are listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJG9DTIqjc

This is why exactly why our military leadership WILL be changed! These views have no place .. Good thing not every leader in service is this crazy and realizes this is a probem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YETjVPH4Ehg&NR=1

[Sincerelee]

Wild, money and science were heavily invested int he pursuit of the Philosiopher's Stone, as well. It did not mean the pursuit was fruitful. just because men with great minds and men with money pursue life on other planets does not mean there is life out there.

[L.A. Tripp]

Life will form "easily" under the right conditions? I don't know, I think this has been disproven, that it will form "easily".

Rode, your sisters think that dinosaurs are a trick of the devil? Wow. I believe there's clear evidence of the existence of dinosaurs. Plus, I personally some "small" types still live today. Like in our current zoo animals, for example.

Sincerelee, you bring up some interesting points about Adam. I've heard the theory before about the destruction between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 but never heard anything "credible" to explain how earth isn't a young earth.

[Rodehard]

If you guys look at the sudden extinction of the dinosaurs you must realize life will form easily under the right conditions

Actually would not this show the ability of life to survive rather than form? None of the impacts that wiped out life were ELE. So it did not "form" after the asteroid impact it evolved from life that already existed. Starting life from nothing is a whole different set of problems.

While I believe that we have a good idea of what happened step by step going back to the moments before the Big Bang, the theory breaks down there. My thought is the in moments before the big bang the laws of Physics did not exist yet. But that leads to another problem, where did that little spark of nearly infinite energy come from. Even in M theory, where two realities touching started our reality in a massive explosion, baring infinite regression, you have that same question. Where did the energy that began it all come from? If we accept "it was always there" then we are at the same place the Christian are with God, "always was".

Science has some very ludicrous ideas too. As in religion we grow and evolve try to learn from our mistakes, and as our understanding grows we adapt out understandings of what is was and will be.

Take for example ET, at one time Science and Religion said it was impossible for life to exist anywhere but on earth. It has only been in the last few decades that it has gone from impossible to probable. In 1923 Tesla was laughed at and ridiculed for saying that he received radio waves from Mars. Everything Science and Religion believed said there could be no life out there. Now both agree life is probably out there.

Now if they don't have sin, and I close them, am I the only one who is in trouble... that is the real question. Esp if like the race that is made of of 6' HB11's comes to my area to do sex experiments. http://www.venusianarts.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[azazels_wolf]

Rodehard:

True but non within the time frame Atlantis is to have occurred, i.e. the last 12,000 years. If Atlantis sank within the lifetime of Athens, proof of a 1Km to 2 Km, high wave that hit every coast on the Eastern seaboard of the Americas, and every West coast of Africa and Europe would still be evident.


Well, there are inland sediment deposits called chevrons, which contain marine fossils and indicate the possibility of mega-tsunami waves. This is a map of the locations and orientations found so far:

http://tsun.sscc.ru/hiwg/PIC/chevrons/Fig2_s.jpg



For example there should still be a salt water ocean (or evidence of one
having been within the last 3,500 to 10,000 years, where the Midwest is now.


(Paleo)Lake Agassiz is an interesting one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Agassiz

Along with the "diluvium" deposits found all over the Eastern and Midwestern US and Canada. (Yes, these are signs of past glaciation, but if you do further research you will find that it is also acknowledged that the region experienced extensive flooding)


Since we are talking about Atlantis, the flood its sinking would have caused would have had to occur within the last 12,000 years max. That would have put the central plains of the US under water during the time the buffalo roamed free and Native American roamed the land. There is no geological proof of a world wide flood within human history.


The central plains were indeed under Lake Agassiz.



In the story of of Atlantis Cecrops I ruled Atlantis 1556 - 1506 BC. If that is true, we would have a time line for the flood and tsunami (above) as post 1556 BC. We know that there was no flood or tsunami meeting the criteria during that time frame.


You mean ruled Athens (Cecrops was the "culture hero" of Athens)
No, you misunderstood, look at it again - Athens was said to have originally existed during the Atlantean period, and then got wiped out during the Flood, being refounded again much later by Actaeus and Cecrops. Plato did date Atlantis (and the original Athens) to 9,000 years before his lifetime.

And I agree that the maps seem to have information that does not date from the 1600s, but rather much earlier. Of course that opens a fun can of worms as to where that information came from. ;)

[azazels_wolf]

Rodehard, also:

There have been ice cores dated to 500,000 BC taken from Antarctica, so how could it be ice free in 1600's? And yet we have maps clearly showing an Ice free continent with such accuracy as to rule out chance, which means the cap had to be ice free in human history. Humanity history does not go back anywhere near that far.

Ancient lost knowledge: Have you ever played the sentence game. You take a room full of people start a sentence and see how screwed up it is by the time it gets around the room. Religion is another example of how even written words are changed dramatically over short periods of time.

Even if the map were copied from an older map which was copied from an older map etc. back for 500,000 years the law of diminishing returns would apply. Each later map would be less accurate than its predecessor. After 500,0000 years the maps would be useless.


The ice cores which date back 500,000 years - are those from the central area of the continent, or the coastlines? Because I could see how it would be fathomable for at least the *coastal areas* to have been without ice at some point within human history. and then later to have been reglaciated during a cooling period. Even today there are areas where the rocks are exposed.



There is another option although it is far fetched to say the lest. Last night while working I had History Channel on. It was about the 7 Seals of the Revelation. It talked about the ruler from under the sea. Maybe the USO are the missing civilization that gave us the knowledge?

I do not recall anything about a ruler from under the sea, but do you know about Agartha and Shambhala?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambhala

Some think that this advanced underground civilization has been with us all along, as spiritual masters who guide us and have occasional contact with us.... others think that these are remnants of previous advanced civilizations, like Atlantis. These are the people that Byrd was talking about.

[The Wild One]

I had to repost this because I feel it explains allot dealing with the religion issues..

Here's how ludacris these religious views are listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJG9DTIqjc

This is why exactly why our military leadership WILL be changed! These views have no place .. Good thing not every leader in service is this crazy and realizes this is a probem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YETjVPH4Ehg&NR=1

[Sincerelee]

Wild, are you going to send David Cross to kick my ass, too? He's the biggest douchebag on stage.

He's a self-centered asshole. I am not saying that because of his set, because each of us comedians do what we think is funny. I am saying it because the guys I know who have performed with him say he is.

He would haate you, too, just by finding out you are from the south. He hates southerners, especially anyone who has even in incling of redneck attitude.

He uses his contempt to hide the fact he is an incredibly dumb guy.

[Rodehard]

Rodehard: Well, there are inland sediment deposits called chevrons, which contain marine fossils and indicate the possibility of mega-tsunami waves.

University of Washington geologist and tsunami expert Jody Bourgeois did a lot of research on this. According to him there are numerous chevrons on Madagascar, but many are parallel to the coastline. Models created by Bourgeois' colleague Robert Weiss show that if they were created by tsunamis they should point in the direction the waves were traveling, mostly perpendicular to the shore.

In a paper in the May issue of Geology, Bourgeois and Weiss, an assistant professor of geology at Texas A&M University, conclude that "the extraordinary claim of 'chevron' genesis by megatsunamis cannot withstand simple but rigorous testing.

Plus if Atlantis sank there would be chevrons along Iceland Greenland, Norway, the Easter US seaboard. etc. They may be there and just not found yet, but the alignment of those in SA are consistent with those in Masagascar which rules out tusnamis.


( Paleo)Lake Agassiz is an interesting one:
Along with the "diluvium" deposits found all over the Eastern and Midwestern US and Canada. (Yes, these are signs of past glaciation, but if you do further research you will find that it is also acknowledged that the region experienced extensive flooding)The central plains were indeed under Lake Agassiz.

True but Lake Agassiz was fresh water and only went as far south as the Dakotas. In comparison if it was caused by a world wide flood, or the sinking of Atlantis, it would be saline. 10% of the liquid water on the planet is non-salt. 90% is salt. If there was a world wide flood, (as described in Noah, or by the sinking of Atlantis all lakes on the planet would be salty.)

While the below is from global warming it is similar to the effects the sinking of Atlantis would cause due to water displacement. According to the legend regarding Atlantis size, it would displace 2.73x as much water as all the glaciers on the planet.

259

And I agree that the maps seem to have information that does not date from the 1600s, but rather much earlier. Of course that opens a fun can of worms as to where that information came from. ;)

How much earlier are we talking. The cores from Antarctic were taking several Km in from the ice edge but remember the ice is is considerable larger than the land mass. They were 500,000 years old. It is possible that a civilization of space capable beings evolved and died out a couple million years ago. That would explain why there is no evidence of them now.

[Sincerelee]

Something else to consider.

If they had ancient GPS accurate mapping, why didn't someone hand down the notion that using leeches to cure headaches, et al, wasn't a good idea?;)

[Rodehard]

Something else to consider.

If they had ancient GPS accurate mapping, why didn't someone hand down the notion that using leeches to cure headaches, et al, wasn't a good idea?;)

Leeches keeps the grays from anal probing you.

Are you proposing that they guessed about the lakes, rivers, etc. under 2 miles of ice. Right now I am thinking they called Madame Cleo because the map and the ice can't both be true. Not based on what we think we know. I can see one guy coping a map, from someone who copied a map, but who made the first map.

With the city they found off Cuba in 2,000 feet of water, and the Bimini road, I would bet there is a great deal of history that was lost. When I get back to Miami in May I will take some time off and do some diving on the Bimini road then find the lost city of Atlantis and, like in Stargate Atlantis, raise the City, bring up the shields and then use the technology to rule the world with an iron hand. I will also rename Atlantis to Play Mansion East. 254 sq miles of HB10's and me.

[azazels_wolf]

Rodehard:

University of Washington geologist and tsunami expert Jody Bourgeois did a lot of research on this. According to him there are numerous chevrons on Madagascar, but many are parallel to the coastline. Models created by Bourgeois' colleague Robert Weiss show that if they were created by tsunamis they should point in the direction the waves were traveling, mostly perpendicular to the shore.

In a paper in the May issue of Geology, Bourgeois and Weiss, an assistant professor of geology at Texas A&M University, conclude that "the extraordinary claim of 'chevron' genesis by megatsunamis cannot withstand simple but rigorous testing.


They are basing the angular/directional impact on their models of wave propagation and fluid dynamics.... however, given the circumstances this event would have involved, are those models correct? These scientists assert that the chevrons are moved and created by winds, rather than waves, as if they were giant sand dunes.

Well, these are three of the chevrons in Madagascar. 3 miles inland, 600 feet high, with marine fossils. Do these look like they were created solely by wind?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/science/14WAVE.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&8dpc

These are overhead/satellite photos of other chevrons. Do these all appear wind-created, or do many of these photos, especially the ones on the bottom half of the page, appear to indicate the former presence of water inundation?
http://tsun.sscc.ru/hiwg/chevrons.htm


Plus if Atlantis sank there would be chevrons along Iceland Greenland, Norway, the Easter US seaboard. etc. They may be there and just not found yet,


Some of the chevrons could also have been heavily impacted by glacial and flood erosion.


but the alignment of those in SA are consistent with those in Masagascar which rules out tusnamis.


Does it necessarily? They based their argument on this computer model :
http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2009/04/090429091637-large.jpg
The white arrows indicate their *expected* angles of impact on the island, but this model doesn't necessarily apply to South America, either, since these are very localized results.


True but Lake Agassiz was fresh water and only went as far south as the Dakotas. In comparison if it was caused by a world wide flood, or the sinking of Atlantis, it would be saline. 10% of the liquid water on the planet is non-salt. 90% is salt. If there was a world wide flood, (as described in Noah, or by the sinking of Atlantis all lakes on the planet would be salty.)


Interestingly, the central plains areas which were not under Lake Agassiz have widespread salt deposits (enough in some areas for mining), and alkaline soil. They also have saltwater marshes and a plant called saltgrass which thrives there.

Freshwater is replenished by precipitation (and runoff), groundwater springs, and glacial melt, is it not? Salt concentrations can change, especially in large bodies of water that are being constantly fed by freshwater sources.


How much earlier are we talking. The cores from Antarctic were taking several Km in from the ice edge but remember the ice is is considerable larger than the land mass. They were 500,000 years old.


Interesting. To me, if you compare the land mass of Antarctica -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Antarctica_6400px_from_Blue_Marble.jpg

with the old maps -
http://www.astraltraveler.com/mysteres/oronteus-finaeus.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-heart-054.jpg
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Buache_Map.html

and Sincerelee, you might like this too - Kircher World Map from 1665, showing all the continents:
http://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/GeoHydro-kircher-1665

- when you compare them, it looks to me like there is still some ice present on those maps. even though the continent may be different than it is today.... notice how the Peninsula, which is normally surrounded by an ice shelf, does appear much thicker and larger than normal in those maps? Notice also how the land mass of the continent in the old maps is considerably larger than what should be depicted on an ice-free Antarctica? These to me are indications that the original map-makers encountered the ice shelves. Obviously, the presence of coastal rivers and mountains seems to indicate that the extent and thickness of the ice, especially perhaps during summer (when melting does occur) was different in extent than it is today.


It is possible that a civilization of space capable beings evolved and died out a couple million years ago. That would explain why there is no evidence of them now.

I am wondering how much a skill like remote viewing, and astral projection, could have also been an influence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing

[azazels_wolf]

Sincerelee:

Something else to consider.

If they had ancient GPS accurate mapping, why didn't someone hand down the notion that using leeches to cure headaches, et al, wasn't a good idea?;)

I believe the leech technique was valid medical knowledge that grew corrupt and out of context through eventual loss of knowledge. Look at this:
http://www.livescience.com/health/050419_maggots.html

[Rodehard]

I agree that the chevrons look like they were left by the flood. However there are a lot of things that look like X which are not. That is why I rely on math and science.

Take the story of Noah and the flood. Noah came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. There are 100’s of mountains that dwarf Ararat but for this we can assume the waters went at least up the slopes of Ararat 3.3 miles. That would mean that amount of water on the planet would have to increase by a factor of 36. If it covered Everest as some claim it would increase by a factor of 127. There is no way for that to have happened. The physical forces on the crust below the water would have crushed it to a diamond hard mass. (16,000 atm) Plus there would be no where for the water to go after the flood.

What if I proposed that rather than an ancient race evolved on earth was wiped out, that they came from somewhere else that was wiped out? There is a great deal of myth behind the Dogon. They claim human like aquatic beings came from Sirius and taught them. What I find interesting is the Dogon knew about the white dwarf companion star in the 1300s, 500 years before we did. They also knew Sirius B had a 50 year elliptical orbit around Sirius A, something we confirmed in 1970. Like the maps of Antarctica there is to much accuracy in what they say and what we know to be true. For one of use to go outside and point at a star and say, “that is where my friend came from, it’s a binary star system, where a white dwarf that is invisible to the naked eye circles an star 3 times the size of our sun and 10 times as bright every 50 years and there is a burned out brown dwarf just to the left of it” and be right, are astronomical.

[The Wild One]

My gosh all this religion ... Ever think about this guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMijKEIZOIQ

[npf87]

Rodehard I don't understand how you are a man of math and science, yet you still believe in what you do. It's incredibly easy to see that God is a human invention. Humans aren't special, we just have a higher lever of consciousness, so we feel like we have to make sense of everything we see. Then we created religion to explain things. Animals and aliens and plants wouldn't be bound by our religion because they could care less about one. They didn't need to create one to make sense of this world and establish order.

[The Wild One]

Rodehard is lost in his own mind. He doesn't know who he is yet. It's fairly obvious, and la tripp is very insecure plus he doesn't have a hot girl. I love how he talks about army SF guys like he knows what he's talking about. W/E bro tell me what the SAS guys drink at their firebases in Afghanistan then I'll believe you maybe held a weapon once. Sincerely is an old military guy that didn't do anything dangerous when he was in, and probably had a desk job for a few years. So he served which is great but he's never seen anything crazy I bet.

All the religious talk is just clinging to fear, and old socialized views. This is the reason the knowledge of alien life is kept secret. Pricely because of these people who can't accept the possibility of not having religion.

I dunno what LA considers attractive but I do know I don't find the girls he hangs with that hot. Plus I believe that picture of him is some random pic he took beside a hot chick he never laid.

Rodehard I know you never served in the military.. So drop your accusations of lying now, because I do know the SF guys. I can't send them to your home because plain and simple they don't waste time with this sort of nonsense. Maybe if you actually could be worth it as in dangerous, or rich they might but apparently your not. Your playing with fire, and messing with people that kill other people for a living. Just be aware of that...

[L.A. Tripp]

Rodehard is lost in his own mind. He doesn't know who he is yet. It's fairly obvious, and la tripp is very insecure plus he doesn't have a hot girl. I love how he talks about army SF guys like he knows what he's talking about. W/E bro tell me what the SAS guys drink at their firebases in Afghanistan then I'll believe you maybe held a weapon once. Sincerely is an old military guy that didn't do anything dangerous when he was in, and probably had a desk job for a few years. So he served which is great but he's never seen anything crazy I bet.

All the religious talk is just clinging to fear, and old socialized views. This is the reason the knowledge of alien life is kept secret. Pricely because of these people who can't accept the possibility of not having religion.

I dunno what LA considers attractive but I do know I don't find the girls he hangs with that hot. Plus I believe that picture of him is some random pic he took beside a hot chick he never laid.

Rodehard I know you never served in the military.. So drop your accusations of lying now, because I do know the SF guys. I can't send them to your home because plain and simple they don't waste time with this sort of nonsense. Maybe if you actually could be worth it as in dangerous, or rich they might but apparently your not. Your playing with fire, and messing with people that kill other people for a living. Just be aware of that...

Oh boy . . . here we go again . . . does it never stop?

Personally, I'm enjoying this SENSIBLE discussion between Rode, Sincerelee, and AW. It brings out a lot of points, and NO ONE is arguing or trashing. Rather nice.

AW, I didn't read the article regarding leeches, but . . . the idea that knowledge growing corrupt seems weird, lol. I understand the point about losing some of that knowledge. However, in medicine (though I'm not big on medical practices these days), isn't stuff supposed to be documented so that it doesn't get corrupted or mistreated? I would at least think that the knowledge USED to be handled that way, though I don't believe it is handled that way now.

I guess that's similar to science losing so much knowledge as well through the centuries? Although, I thought that was supposed to be well documented too, technically.

It does make me wonder just how in the world so much knowledge actually got "lost". Aside from civilizations getting wiped out, etc. Because, oral tradition still stands, though I realize oral traditions changes "facts" very easily from one person to another.

[Rodehard]

Oh boy . . . here we go again . . . does it never stop?

You just have to ignore him, not let him draw you in.

[walkenbass]

You know, on my home plaint we don't believe in aliens.


I posted this because I know many atheist minded people surf threw the pick up Universe. I was curious what people believe regarding UFO sighting, and the existence of life beyond Earth. Considering the fact military generals, astronauts, and extremely credible people around the world are reporting on this in droves would it be crazy to think something else could exist? What do you think?

In my own experience the US Government is very capable of covering up this for a variety of smart reasons. The first one being if the stories are true that means another being with far greater technology is able to operate without any seemingly sound defense in our airspace which is disconcerting. The second reason is religious because America is a deeply religious country in many ways and this kinda knowledge given to the public would cause a great deal of religious upheaval. Third their is the possibility the United States is the one country with actual access to advanced alien technology which is being reversed engineered very slowly. The reason it would be slow is because if the reports are true this alien technology would be so advanced the landing of a space craft to be reversed engineered could be equivilant to landing a F-22 raptor in Rome during the reign of Julius Caesar. It would be enormously advanced and be thus extremely difficult to pick apart and would take time. Although it would lead to major advancements slowly but surely... If a country had such a device and others didn't it would make sense to keep it very secret. So me personally I believe theirs a good chance aliens do exist.

[Rodehard]

Rodehard I don't understand how you are a man of math and science, yet you still believe in what you do.

How can you look at the natural world we live in and not believe in God.

[Rodehard]

You know, on my home planet we don't believe in aliens.

Dude I have been to your home planet and except for the no dinner before anal probing, the place rocks.

[The Wild One]

Well you don't have to believe but I would say allot of evidence points in that direction. It's noteworthy and seems highly likely such things could exist. While LA disagrees with me in that life isn't simple which is making the point it occurs over long periods of time to evolve time doesn't actually exist. Time is a measure we use to place ourselves in the universe. A measure that is in many cases not accurate, and has no real importance. Before you were alive billions of years passed but did your evolution make you wait a billion years to exist. No your existences all seemed instantaneous while the in the human measure took along time in the Universal measure that evolution could be fairly small and simple. Even not uncommon

Also Rode if you had any first hand experience with SF guys you'd be able to tell me something simple as what kind of alcholic beverage the SAS like to drink. They make it and it's horrible... You dunno what it is because all the info you found is on the internet regarding special forces. Which makes your insults laughable, and your whole existence obviously living in a fairy tale. If you like such things so much then grab a weapon and go really make it happen. I mean you threatened to send the DOD after me... lol You don't even realize I hang out with sf guys, and guys that run sf units. If you ever meet a guy like that saying what you say you're going to get your butt kicked. I'm 6'5 195 and a pretty big guy... My SF buddies make me look like a twig for real so dude be ready for what happens when you play this game in a bar and you run into the real deal. That's all I'm saying

I'll be going to Bragg to help train with these guys so I'll ask em if they got your email, and they can figure out where you sent it from who you are etc. etc.. Then after that I'll laugh, and we'll all go grab a beer.

Your challenge was where's the CIA headquarters in VA or something laughable.. Are you serious man? lol What are you thinking ..

[Rodehard]

May I suggest we all transfer out God thoughts to the Atheists forum.

If we are going to entertain the lost knowledge theory, we should get an idea of what we are talking about. How long ago, how advanced they were, (row boats or star ships) etc.

While I believe that this theory would explain a great deal, The thing about an ancient lost civilization that is difficult for me, is there is no physical evidence of it.

John Nudds, University of Manchester, Senior Lecturer in Palaeontology was once asked how long it would take for all trace of man to disappear.
In part his answer was "If we think in terms of those ancient civilization sit will only be a few millennia before our city would firstly be overcome by vegetation and then would be buried by silt and sediment. If you consider the fabrics used in modern day construction: reinforced concrete, plastics etcetera these would certainly survive the burial for at least as long as the two million year-old stone tools dating from the early humans from Africa, for example." End Quote.

Later he talks about the chemical and radiological evidence of our existence we would leave behind. That takes us out to 200,000 years.

The glass coke bottles we used to drop in the trash off the continental shelf would last 20,000,000 years. Where is the lost civilizations coke bottle.

[Rodehard]

I think that it is more likely that ET gave us some information then split.

Take the Dogon for example, highly accurate information about a star system we did not know about until 100's of years after they did. Yes we knew Sirius A was there, but not B, not its orbit, not the size, the planets circling the binary cluster etc. Too much detail to be chance.

So did aliens come to Earth and take up residence, share their knowledge then when they got to know us, decided we were to dangerous as PUA's to explore the galaxy and put us on ignore. Or were the Dogon really really good guessers?

If a great highly advanced civilization once populated earth, there would be clues left behind. However if a colony of small size came from somewhere else, interacted with us, as many myths say they did, then left their footprint would have been tiny. It would be easy to miss. They could still be here only using their technology to hide from us.

Many religions, including the Old Testament have stories of humans being taken up into heaven on flying chariots, then coming back with knowledge. Maybe it was ET.

Of course for me unless Elijah shows up in a flying Chariot with a tag that says "made by God" . I will be skeptical always relying on math and physics to look into any theory even mine.

[walkenbass]

Dude I have been to your home planet and except for the no dinner before anal probing, the place rocks.

You didn't get dinner ?

[azazels_wolf]

Rodehard is lost in his own mind. He doesn't know who he is yet. It's fairly obvious, and la tripp is very insecure plus he doesn't have a hot girl. I love how he talks about army SF guys like he knows what he's talking about. W/E bro tell me what the SAS guys drink at their firebases in Afghanistan then I'll believe you maybe held a weapon once. Sincerely is an old military guy that didn't do anything dangerous when he was in, and probably had a desk job for a few years. So he served which is great but he's never seen anything crazy I bet.

I dunno what LA considers attractive but I do know I don't find the girls he hangs with that hot. Plus I believe that picture of him is some random pic he took beside a hot chick he never laid.

Rodehard I know you never served in the military.. So drop your accusations of lying now, because I do know the SF guys. I can't send them to your home because plain and simple they don't waste time with this sort of nonsense. Maybe if you actually could be worth it as in dangerous, or rich they might but apparently your not. Your playing with fire, and messing with people that kill other people for a living. Just be aware of that...



Wild One, these are EXACTLY the kind of personal attacks we do NOT want to see here. What are you trying to accomplish this way?

It is obvious that many of you guys in this thread do not like or respect each other. If that is the case, then why are you wasting your time talking to each other? You have better things to do with your time than to make jabs and maintain conflict. All it accomplishes is to make you look petty and ridiculous, and you are dragging your thread down with it.

AMOG wars do not prove your point or make you look more authoritative. They do the opposite. Instead, stop talking to the people you dislike (why waste your time and get annoyed?), and/or stick with your topics minus the personal crap.

Thank you in advance.

That said:

My gosh all this religion ... Ever think about this guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMijKEIZOIQ


That is a very interesting video, thank you for posting that.
One of their most "conclusive" pieces of evidence however is blatant error - the accounts related to Alexander the Great. They are very badly mistranslated and misinterpreted. These are the original accounts:

Furthermore, they [the Tyrians] would heat bronze shields in a blazing fire, fill them with hot sand and boiling excrement and suddenly hurl them from the walls. None of their deterrents aroused greater fear than this. The hot sand would make its way between the breastplate and the body; there was no way to shake it out and it would burn through whatever it touched. The soldiers would throw away their weapons, tear off all their protective clothing and thus expose themselves to wounds without being able to retaliate.
(From Heckel, W. and Yardley, J. Alexander the Great : historical texts in translation, 2004, p. 147)

Immediately after that the sky grew very black and dark, and from the dark sky there came burning fire. The fire fell to the earth like a burning torch, and the whole plain was burning from the fire's flame. Then men said that they thought it was the anger of the gods which had fallen upon us. Then I ordered old clothing to be torn up and used as a protection against the fire. After that we had a quiet and peaceful night, once our difficulties assuaged.
(Orchard, Andy. Pride and Prodigies: Studies in the Monsters of the Beowulf Manuscript, Cambridge, 1995, p. 245)

The latter sounds like a meteor strike to me.
More info here:
http://deliyannis.blogspot.com/2009/11/alexander-great-and-ufos.html

As for the UFO-related rock art, etc.... have you heard about all the UFO sightings that are experienced during the use of entheogens, such as ayahuasca (which contains DMT)?
http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/ufo-dmt-connection-tribal.html

^^There is some ayahuasca art there too.
Now, I am not saying they are unreal or simple imagination or hallucination. I am pointing out that perhaps the nature of UFOs is not what everyone would like to assume it is.




All the religious talk is just clinging to fear, and old socialized views. This is the reason the knowledge of alien life is kept secret. Pricely because of these people who can't accept the possibility of not having religion.


I will not speak for the others, but.... excluding dogma when used by people in power as a tool to incite fear, you would not say this if you have had spiritual experiences in which fear was completely absent, with love and light as the all-encompassing, all-permeating reality.

[azazels_wolf]

L.A. Tripp:

Oh boy . . . here we go again . . . does it never stop?

Personally, I'm enjoying this SENSIBLE discussion between Rode, Sincerelee, and AW. It brings out a lot of points, and NO ONE is arguing or trashing. Rather nice.


Yup, I do like the *sensible* discussion as well, from all involved (even Wild One, like I said please stick to the discussion of the topics, not the persons who discuss). Like Rodehard said, don't get sucked into the personal stuff. It's a waste of time.



AW, I didn't read the article regarding leeches,


I think you would find it very interesting, it's about successful modern medical treatment with leeches AND maggots actually. :p



but . . . the idea that knowledge growing corrupt seems weird, lol. I understand the point about losing some of that knowledge. However, in medicine (though I'm not big on medical practices these days), isn't stuff supposed to be documented so that it doesn't get corrupted or mistreated? I would at least think that the knowledge USED to be handled that way, though I don't believe it is handled that way now.


Yes, but documents got lost and destroyed, and modified either by error or on purpose by scribes via the copying process. Knowledge passed down orally is even more susceptible to this. I am talking about the transition from knowledge and wisdom based on successful investigation and application, to unfounded superstition that can do more harm than good.



I guess that's similar to science losing so much knowledge as well through the centuries? Although, I thought that was supposed to be well documented too, technically.


There have certainly been times in history when scientific knowledge was temporarily lost.



It does make me wonder just how in the world so much knowledge actually got "lost". Aside from civilizations getting wiped out, etc. Because, oral tradition still stands, though I realize oral traditions changes "facts" very easily from one person to another.

There you go. And often, knowledge (and literacy!) was guarded amongst certain small groups of people (such as a priesthood, and/or the nobility) so if that particular group of people were wiped out, in a natural disaster for example, the remaining members of that society will have lost their integral knowledge-keepers.

[azazels_wolf]

I agree that the chevrons look like they were left by the flood. However there are a lot of things that look like X which are not. That is why I rely on math and science.


Scientists are divided about the creation of the chevrons.



Take the story of Noah and the flood. Noah came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.


That's what the Bible says, but there are other accounts of Noah in which the ark came to rest on other mountains (the Koran has one example of this). The mountain is always local or well-known to the culture who tell the myth - often the tallest mountain that was historically and directly known to that culture. So what was the original tallest mountain? ;)



There are 100’s of mountains that dwarf Ararat but for this we can assume the waters went at least up the slopes of Ararat 3.3 miles. That would mean that amount of water on the planet would have to increase by a factor of 36. If it covered Everest as some claim it would increase by a factor of 127. There is no way for that to have happened. The physical forces on the crust below the water would have crushed it to a diamond hard mass. (16,000 atm) Plus there would be no where for the water to go after the flood.


This is assuming that the floodwaters covered the whole planet at once and just sat there, and that water increased at all. What about a scenario in which pre-existing water was displaced?



What if I proposed that rather than an ancient race evolved on earth was wiped out, that they came from somewhere else that was wiped out? There is a great deal of myth behind the Dogon. They claim human like aquatic beings came from Sirius and taught them. What I find interesting is the Dogon knew about the white dwarf companion star in the 1300s, 500 years before we did. They also knew Sirius B had a 50 year elliptical orbit around Sirius A, something we confirmed in 1970. Like the maps of Antarctica there is to much accuracy in what they say and what we know to be true. For one of use to go outside and point at a star and say, “that is where my friend came from, it’s a binary star system, where a white dwarf that is invisible to the naked eye circles an star 3 times the size of our sun and 10 times as bright every 50 years and there is a burned out brown dwarf just to the left of it” and be right, are astronomical.

From what I have seen about the Dogon, there are some problems with this too.

Anthropologists have further investigated the Dogon and have never encountered these same exact myths from them again.The Dogon do discuss Sirius A (as did the ancient Egyptians) - part of the original account discusses what is consistent with the heliacal rising of Sirius A. Then there are other details within the original account which are seemingly consistent with a bright southern star named Canopus, which was also described very similarly in Egyptian and Babylonian mythology. And all three of these cultures do connect divine beings with these two (known) stars.

From what I have seen so far, I believe the authors who discussed the original account badly misinterpreted the myth, citing it as a reference to Sirius B and finding ways to correlate them, when in fact the myth was referring to different known stars that have been traditionally considered of great importance in Africa. Additionally, by the time this myth was collected, the Dogon had already had extensive contact with western scientists who knew about Sirius B.

If you can find the original documentation, we might be able to dissect this more clearly. Robert Temple wrote the Sirius Mystery book, but his source was research by anthropologist Marcel Griaule.

[The Wild One]

What is spiritual? I don't believe theirs such a thing as a perfect love. That's not reality.. I know people hate to hear that but why does that make love any less artistic? Romeo and Juliet is one of the most famous love stories.. Was it perfect? No, it was real it was life.

Theirs no perfect love, perfect world. I never want to live in such a world. One thing I've learned and this is the best way I can describe it but the surest way a man can find heaven is by passing threw hell.

I've knocked on deaths door a few times in my young life, and often wonder if I will be lucky enough to reach forty. Life, and love is a battle without rules.

[Sincerelee]

Wild, I feel sorry for you. To live life not knowing a love that will never fade.

Unless your mother was mentally disturbed, or you were an orphan at birth, you have seen perfect love. What might not have been perfect is her ability to express that love.

I pray that some day, you will feel perfect love for someone else so that you will not only SEE perfect love, but that you will FEEL it coming from you so you can no longer deny its existance.

[azazels_wolf]

What is spiritual? I don't believe theirs such a thing as a perfect love. That's not reality.. I know people hate to hear that but why does that make love any less artistic? Romeo and Juliet is one of the most famous love stories.. Was it perfect? No, it was real it was life.


I know it might sound dumb. ....But I cannot describe it as anything OTHER than perfect. Perfect, total, all-encompassing, LOVE.


Theirs no perfect love, perfect world. I never want to live in such a world.


But that perfect love heals all pains, all suffering. It satisfies all desires. It is wholeness and completion. It is bliss.
It is the hidden desire of every human being to want to return to that.



One thing I've learned and this is the best way I can describe it but the surest way a man can find heaven is by passing threw hell.


This is actually a very profound truth: "You must descend before you can ascend."
You must first pass through hell before you can attain heaven.


I've knocked on deaths door a few times in my young life, and often wonder if I will be lucky enough to reach forty. Life, and love is a battle without rules.

Love has no rules, no limitations, no boundaries. It simply is. It is true Being. But that Being does not exist in a state of battle - it is in a state of surrender. You can only experience that perfect love once you stop battling and just let go, for a little while. And then you find that you are perfectly safe.

[L.A. Tripp]

The glass coke bottles we used to drop in the trash off the continental shelf would last 20,000,000 years. Where is the lost civilizations coke bottle.
LOL. Wow. That is definitely something I had NOT considered. But who said those civilizations made coke bottles . . . or anything similar?

L.A. Tripp:
I think you would find it very interesting, it's about successful modern medical treatment with leeches AND maggots actually. :p
Mmmm, very appetizing to read while I'm eating breakfast . . . cereal, lol. Well, I do hope to take a few minutes this week to read up on that. See where I can carve time out . . . lol

Yes, but documents got lost and destroyed, and modified either by error or on purpose by scribes via the copying process. Knowledge passed down orally is even more susceptible to this. I am talking about the transition from knowledge and wisdom based on successful investigation and application, to unfounded superstition that can do more harm than good.
Mmmm, yes. Modified on purpose. I hear that one. I know from research I've done about the Bible some of that happened with some of the scribes. So I could see that happening in other areas as well. Then lost and destroyed obviously, with daily crap that happens. Good points.

So, the question is how do we know what exactly successful investigation is, if we don't have concrete proof of what the knowledge actually was and what is written is accurate? If there are multiple sources, you'd think one would be right, but how do we know, and which one?

Not to cast doubt, lol, just debate.

There you go. And often, knowledge (and literacy!) was guarded amongst certain small groups of people (such as a priesthood, and/or the nobility) so if that particular group of people were wiped out, in a natural disaster for example, the remaining members of that society will have lost their integral knowledge-keepers.
Hmmm, another very interesting point. The knowledge-keepers of that group of society being wiped out in and of themselves. Very similar to what some sects do even today. But, as with today's sects, how do we determine which sect actually has the real/true knowledge and which ones are false?

Sure, if they have similar stories, you can assume those are pretty well true, with slight differences in the nuances maybe.

And people want to complain that Google wants to spread the knowledge in the public domain . . . lol.

[The Wild One]

Love is a strange word the can mean so many things. I'll never know any perfect love. I may feel it but nothing is perfect.

This is something I don't think we can measure, but we understand it still.

[azazels_wolf]

Love is a strange word the can mean so many things. I'll never know any perfect love. I may feel it but nothing is perfect.


This is what the vast majority of people think, before they experience it. But, once you do feel it, you know it to be perfect. Words cannot describe.


This is something I don't think we can measure, but we understand it still.

Most of what people call love is not love - they take egoic and biological functions to be love.
But the perfect divine love I speak of is something that cannot be measured (it is infinite), it cannot be dissected with reason and intellect.... it simply IS, and it is understood and experienced deep within, in our core, our true self, the Being that lies beyond the mind.

[azazels_wolf]

LOL. Wow. That is definitely something I had NOT considered. But who said those civilizations made coke bottles . . . or anything similar?


Well, we know that glass was made at least 5,000 years ago. They just didn't make all of the same items with it that are common in our cultures. But there are many other ways to store and distribute drinks, and many other materials that can be used for that purpose. So we can't assume that they would have wanted or needed to make "coke bottles".



Mmmm, very appetizing to read while I'm eating breakfast . . . cereal, lol. Well, I do hope to take a few minutes this week to read up on that. See where I can carve time out . . . lol


LMAO. Would you like some worms with that? :D



Mmmm, yes. Modified on purpose. I hear that one. I know from research I've done about the Bible some of that happened with some of the scribes. So I could see that happening in other areas as well. Then lost and destroyed obviously, with daily crap that happens. Good points.

So, the question is how do we know what exactly successful investigation is, if we don't have concrete proof of what the knowledge actually was and what is written is accurate? If there are multiple sources, you'd think one would be right, but how do we know, and which one?

Not to cast doubt, lol, just debate.



Well, I meant the knowledge that was obtained through observation, trial and error, and other methods, by previous cultures. But you do have a good point - if we have multiple sources saying conflicting things, how do we prove which is correct? As I am sure you have seen, some of these points of contention, whether historical, religious, medical, or anything else, can become very complex, when direct and immediate proof or debunking is not possible to obtain.



Hmmm, another very interesting point. The knowledge-keepers of that group of society being wiped out in and of themselves. Very similar to what some sects do even today. But, as with today's sects, how do we determine which sect actually has the real/true knowledge and which ones are false?


As far as faith is concerned, I am personally of the opinion that it should be based on direct, personal experience of the divine, rather than because someone simply told you to believe such and such a way. That each person must find their own truth, not depending on intermediaries to tell them what they think is the truth.

But, I know there are different opinions on this.


Sure, if they have similar stories, you can assume those are pretty well true, with slight differences in the nuances maybe.

And people want to complain that Google wants to spread the knowledge in the public domain . . . lol.

I personally find comparative religion and mythology to be very fascinating - there are some common themes and correlations that can be found all over the world, throughout different periods of history... when tied together and combined with archeology and historical art, they begin to paint a picture that points to something of great significance. :)

And I love what the internet has done for the spread of knowledge. Truly awesome.

[L.A. Tripp]

Most of what people call love is not love - they take egoic and biological functions to be love.
But the perfect divine love I speak of is something that cannot be measured (it is infinite), it cannot be dissected with reason and intellect.... it simply IS, and it is understood and experienced deep within, in our core, our true self, the Being that lies beyond the mind.
Plus, that love you feel at your core can also be spread to more than one person. Without diminishing it.

Well, we know that glass was made at least 5,000 years ago. They just didn't make all of the same items with it that are common in our cultures. But there are many other ways to store and distribute drinks, and many other materials that can be used for that purpose. So we can't assume that they would have wanted or needed to make "coke bottles".
So what WAS made then, that we can look at to learn from?

LMAO. Would you like some worms with that? :D
Sure, why not? Wouldn't hurt . . . much, lol.

Well, I meant the knowledge that was obtained through observation, trial and error, and other methods, by previous cultures. But you do have a good point - if we have multiple sources saying conflicting things, how do we prove which is correct? As I am sure you have seen, some of these points of contention, whether historical, religious, medical, or anything else, can become very complex, when direct and immediate proof or debunking is not possible to obtain.
Exactly. And how do we "verify" that some sources are in fact correct and others aren't? I mean, for sure. I do have faith. I also believe, as Rodes has mentioned, that atheism is also a type of faith, because you believe that there's no Being to believe in. You can't prove it one way or the other, according to our human sciences. But, I believe the presence of a Being is proven through nature, at the very least. Plus, the experience of love at my core, though I have not always felt it, but that's because of me letting myself get in the way of that love.

So, guidelines would be needed, but then who sets those guidelines? How to know what guidelines would be good or not good?

As far as faith is concerned, I am personally of the opinion that it should be based on direct, personal experience of the divine, rather than because someone simply told you to believe such and such a way. That each person must find their own truth, not depending on intermediaries to tell them what they think is the truth.

But, I know there are different opinions on this.
Yep, different opinions, true. I agree though, we shouldn't just blindly listen to what some preacher or teacher says about The Divine. Whether they agree OR disagree that there is a Divine Being. I know it's possible to experience the Presence for yourself.

I personally find comparative religion and mythology to be very fascinating - there are some common themes and correlations that can be found all over the world, throughout different periods of history... when tied together and combined with archeology and historical art, they begin to paint a picture that points to something of great significance. :)
And I actually love piecing these things together myself and seeing what comes from it. It's very interesting, even if not always true or believable. And hey . . . what seems slightly credible makes good fodder for fiction ;)

Digging into conspiracy theories is about the same, to me, lol. Very interesting information that can be played with.

And I love what the internet has done for the spread of knowledge. Truly awesome.
Here here! LOL.

[Rodehard]

You didn't get dinner ?

Nope. They didn't even have the common courtesy to give me a reach around either. I got rose the next day but they were obviously from a street vendor, not an upper scale boutique.

ds2=-dt2+(dx-vsf(rs)dt)2 Proof that Warp Drive is possible. Rigel 3 get ready for the PUAs.

[Rodehard]

Scientists are divided about the creation of the chevrons.
That is the case with everything. You'd think they would just all agree with me and be happy :)

That's what the Bible says, but there are other accounts of Noah in which the ark came to rest on other mountains (the Koran has one example of this).

In theory the oldest written text should be the least altered by time. The Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest written text. Genesis is argued to be older but it was an oral tradition, as a scientist I cannot accept the theory that the Genesis account was kept pure and accurate throughout the centuries by the providence of God until it was finally compiled, edited, and written down by Moses. Mankind does not work that way.

In Gilgamesh the ark lands on Mt. Nisir. Still regardless of what Mt. it was each story says it was a world wide flood even peoples from the 4 corners of the world.

I am curious are there stories where it was just a local flood?

This is assuming that the flood waters covered the whole planet at once and just sat there, and that water increased at all.
What about a scenario in which pre-existing water was displaced?

How would you displace that much water?

There was a theory in Catholic school that a world wide flood might refer to the known world. But with part of that area being at seal level and water taking the path of least existence, a local flood of that magnitude wouldn't stay local. It would flow out at a massive rate.

So what was the original tallest mountain? ;)

Olympus. I closed Aphrodite, Athena, Artemis, and Pegasus one weekend. (Greek God wine is powerful stuff)

Anyone here buy into the Annunaki / Nibiru story?

[The Wild One]

..............

[azazels_wolf]

Wild One, take the Special Forces / security dispute elsewhere too. It doesn't belong here - he agreed to drop it, now so should you. Thank you.

[azazels_wolf]

Plus, that love you feel at your core can also be spread to more than one person. Without diminishing it.


Yes, it is without limits.



So what WAS made then, that we can look at to learn from?


Beads for jewelry :
http://www.egyptmonth.com/mag4.htm
And glass for ceramic glaze.

And then, 3500 years ago, glass pots and vases.
http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/images/objects/size3/37.340E_SL1.jpg


Sure, why not? Wouldn't hurt . . . much, lol.



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2336/2677987773_eae508e222_o.jpg



Exactly. And how do we "verify" that some sources are in fact correct and others aren't? I mean, for sure. I do have faith. I also believe, as Rodes has mentioned, that atheism is also a type of faith, because you believe that there's no Being to believe in. You can't prove it one way or the other, according to our human sciences. But, I believe the presence of a Being is proven through nature, at the very least. Plus, the experience of love at my core, though I have not always felt it, but that's because of me letting myself get in the way of that love.

So, guidelines would be needed, but then who sets those guidelines? How to know what guidelines would be good or not good?



Perhaps we are unsure which is correct because we always let ourselves get in the way. ;)



Yep, different opinions, true. I agree though, we shouldn't just blindly listen to what some preacher or teacher says about The Divine. Whether they agree OR disagree that there is a Divine Being. I know it's possible to experience the Presence for yourself.


Agreed...


And I actually love piecing these things together myself and seeing what comes from it. It's very interesting, even if not always true or believable. And hey . . . what seems slightly credible makes good fodder for fiction ;)


If any of it helps you to perform a creative act that brings enjoyment or personal growth, to you and anyone else, then I believe it is a worthwhile exploration.


Digging into conspiracy theories is about the same, to me, lol. Very interesting information that can be played with.


Yes. Lots of paranoia and fear though, at times - that is what I dislike about them: using them to incite more fear. Which, as we know, does not help humanity at all.

[Rodehard]

Love is a strange word the can mean so many things. I'll never know any perfect love. I may feel it but nothing is perfect.

This is something I don't think we can measure, but we understand it still.

Would you like to feel that perfect love? Christ made it simple.

Mark 10: 46-52
Then they came to Jericho. As Jesus and his disciples, together with a large crowd, were leaving the city, a blind man, Bartimaeus, was sitting by the roadside begging. When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Many rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he shouted all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” Jesus stopped and said, “Call him.” So they called to the blind man, “Cheer up! On your feet! He’s calling you.” Throwing his cloak aside, he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus. “What do you want me to do for you?” Jesus asked him. The blind man said, “Rabbi, I want to see.” “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

In all he did Jesus never asked anyone to say a certain prayer, or go to a certain church, wear a certain suit, or do anything us modern day believers say you have to do. I doesn't matter how perfect our translations of his word are, or how ass'ed up. It doesn't matter if you are sinner or saint, gay or straight, white or black AFC or PUA, whether you are an atheist or preacher....

Nothing you have every done or ever will do can keep this one thing from being true...

If you want to feel that perfect love that never fades all you have to do is take the chance that it is out there and like Bartimaeus ask him... "Jesus son of David, Have pity on me a sinner and save me."

At that moment his only reply will be "your faith has healed you" and that love will begin to makes itself know in your life.

[azazels_wolf]

That is the case with everything. You'd think they would just all agree with me and be happy :)


But then there would be no challenge, no dynamic growth! :p


In theory the oldest written text should be the least altered by time. The Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest written text.


I think the Epic of Atra-Hasis is supposed to contain one of the oldest known accounts of the Flood, which the Epic of Gilgamesh was directly influenced by. But as far as I know, most of the section of Atrahasis that describes these specific events has been lost, so we don't know what the earlier "original" said about that... yet.

There was also the Eridu Genesis, the Ziusudra story:
http://www.piney.com/EriduGen.html

And that one does not mention a landing place for the Ark, although it does mention a Mount Dilmun / mountains of Dilmun at the end.

And of course, those tablets wrote down myths which were previously transmitted orally...


Genesis is argued to be older but it was an oral tradition, as a scientist I cannot accept the theory that the Genesis account was kept pure and accurate throughout the centuries by the providence of God until it was finally compiled, edited, and written down by Moses. Mankind does not work that way.


As far as I know, the oldest Genesis passages we have, so far, also were written down after the Babylonian Captivity, and thus subject to its influence. So we don't really know what the story was before that.


In Gilgamesh the ark lands on Mt. Nisir. Still regardless of what Mt. it was each story says it was a world wide flood even peoples from the 4 corners of the world.


And we don't know where Mt. Nisir was, nor do we know where Dilmun was, although later accounts point towards the Zagros mountains. But by that time, the original meaning of Dilmun may have been lost, since it originally seemed to refer to an earthly paradise, not the Zagros.

Interestingly, all the different flood accounts also give a different STARTING location for the departure. All of these departure and landing points are modified to the cultures they were spoken in.... so again, we do not know the original.



I am curious are there stories where it was just a local flood?


There are stories all over the world of local floods too. But the thing that characterizes the Deluge myth is that most of them consider it to have been a flood that wiped out most of mankind, and/or ended a World Age. The Flood which ended the Age/Aeon was a large-scale event which impacted more than just a local population.



How would you displace that much water?

There was a theory in Catholic school that a world wide flood might refer to the known world. But with part of that area being at seal level and water taking the path of least existence, a local flood of that magnitude wouldn't stay local. It would flow out at a massive rate.


Well, meteor impacts, and massive sea-side landslides and/or volcanic collapse are known to displace very large amounts of water.



Olympus. I closed Aphrodite, Athena, Artemis, and Pegasus one weekend. (Greek God wine is powerful stuff)


Haha there is a secret meaning behind Ambrosia / Nectar, you should look into that (it ties into what I showed you) ;)


Anyone here buy into the Annunaki / Nibiru story?

I won't speak for anyone else, but you already know why I think the Nibiru story is completely untenable. :p It is interesting though, I am sure someone will want to discuss it here in relation with UFOs at some point.
(Anyone with UFO-related stuff, please feel free to talk over this particular discussion)

[The Wild One]

Azazel you know what I wrote. Basically I want you to know that yes as far as that fight is concerned in this forum that is over. Outside of this forum if an email was sent it will be found and we'll decide how to proceed from that point forward on our own. From this point on this matter will not affect the Venusian Arts Forum in any way shape or form it's a whole new ball game now.

Now we can all get back to the real issue of this thread.

[L.A. Tripp]

And I actually love piecing these things together myself and seeing what comes from it. It's very interesting, even if not always true or believable. And hey . . . what seems slightly credible makes good fodder for fiction
If any of it helps you to perform a creative act that brings enjoyment or personal growth, to you and anyone else, then I believe it is a worthwhile exploration.

Digging into conspiracy theories is about the same, to me, lol. Very interesting information that can be played with.
Yes. Lots of paranoia and fear though, at times - that is what I dislike about them: using them to incite more fear. Which, as we know, does not help humanity at all.
LOL, I'm glad you included "at times" in there, otherwise I'd have to say there was a conflict there. After all, I do create it for enjoyment ;)

And, having 3 relationships going on at the same time creates some enjoyment for me, though maybe not for every single individual involved . . . but I'm sure some fiction fodder will come from this too, lol. Already had one non-fiction piece come from it, lol . . . but it was enjoyed by readers ;) So . . . I guess that makes it all good? LOL.

The problem is . . . what's enjoyed by one, isn't enjoyed by all . . . which may have something to do with where conspiracy theories come from . . . ?

Sorry, further off topic . . .

[Rodehard]

Was watching NOVA while I worked tonight. They were using detailed instructions from Egypt to build Pharaohs boat. According to the records the boats were built in Luxor, then each boat was disassembled and carried 90 miles across the desert to the Red Sea and Launched. Each boat took 4,000 workers to do this.

NOVA attempted to build a boat in the same manner using modern tools. They could only do so by using trial and error to fill in the gaps in knowledge. They had to caulk the seams between the boards, then let it soak in the local river to make the wood swell, then pump it dry and put 9 tons of sand bags in the bottom of the boat to stabilize it.

They loaded it on a flat bed and drove it to the Red Sea where the boat would not stabilize,and the oars were not usable. It was not until the were under full sail that they found that the boat would stabilize but then when the wind got up over 20 knots, they could not use the sail.

In the end they got it to work, and they claim that the boats were better on most levels than anything we have today, easily capable of reaching the Americas.

Is this an analogy for what happened to the lost knowledge and how fast it can be lost. With the plans written down, and only a few thousand years of "progress" passing, they could only build a reasonably accurate copy of the ship, and that was by trail and error.

************************************************** ***************************************'

Another question about Noah and the Ark.
Limiting it to only the animals in the area Noah lived in and limited it to one pair of each genus instead of each species, taking young animals instead adults, leaving off the long-extinct animals, (some versions claim there were dinosaurs on the ark) and doing everything else Noah could do to reduce payload and still fit the story, an ark of the size specified in the Bible would not be large enough to carry a cargo of animals and food sufficient to repopulate the earth, especially if animals that are now extinct were required to be aboard. (Dodo bird etc.)

[Sincerelee]

Another question about Noah and the Ark.
Limiting it to only the animals in the area Noah lived in and limited it to one pair of each genus instead of each species, taking young animals instead adults, leaving off the long-extinct animals, (some versions claim there were dinosaurs on the ark) and doing everything else Noah could do to reduce payload and still fit the story, an ark of the size specified in the Bible would not be large enough to carry a cargo of animals and food sufficient to repopulate the earth, especially if animals that are now extinct were required to be aboard. (Dodo bird etc.)

Look into the theory of tessaracts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessaract

The God of the Universe, is also the God of Time and Space, and could easily turn the ark into a tesseract.

Also, consider that the ark is larger than a football field, and a football field holds a lot of people. Also consider that though it mentions two types of birds on the ark, many birds and other animals that swim int heir daily life could have lived on floating debris throughout the earth.

[Rodehard]

Look into the theory of tessaracts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessaract

The God of the Universe, is also the God of Time and Space, and could easily turn the ark into a tesseract.

Also, consider that the ark is larger than a football field, and a football field holds a lot of people. Also consider that though it mentions two types of birds on the ark, many birds and other animals that swim int heir daily life could have lived on floating debris throughout the earth.

Noah could have built a TARDIS too, but if God meant TARDIS wouldn't he have said TARDIS? ;)

[Rodehard]

And the LORD said, 'Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.' So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.'

When ever I point out to my more knowledgeable Bible thumping friends that the reason the story of Babylons says mankind had his languages scattered, was not arrogance as seems to be the common story, but rather to limit our potential, they fall back to the idea God did not want everyone living in one place, that he wanted them to fill the face of the earth.

I never really bought that because if God meant that, then that is what he would have told them.

Tonight I was reading a story about the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force irritating the British Museum because they have been camped on the ruins of Babylon for the last few years. I was unaware that we had found Babylon, and more unaware that they had found the remains of what could have been a 2 mile high tower. While both of those facts surprised me, what really got me wanting to ask a question here in the forum.

I had always thought Babylon was the only city on earth at the time, but it was not. There were millions of people living all over the world at the time. So we were being fruitful and filling the face of the earth.

If we were a multinational species by then, it takes away the "god did not like major metropolitan areas" explanation.

So why did he scramble the languages? Were already scattered all over the earth, at least according to the follsil records, and ruins we have found.

Am I wrong to assume that God says what he means? OR Did ET see what it was we would become and intervene to prevent that.

[azazels_wolf]

Multiple replies here.....

Wild One:
Thank you.

L.A. Tripp:

LOL, I'm glad you included "at times" in there, otherwise I'd have to say there was a conflict there. After all, I do create it for enjoyment ;)


There is definitely entertainment value in conspiracy theories... as well as food for thought.
But there are other contexts in which they become very destructive due to the fear and paranoia they can incite. By acting on fear, people lose their empowerment, their rationality, their love and compassion for each other, and a lot of other things.



And, having 3 relationships going on at the same time creates some enjoyment for me, though maybe not for every single individual involved . . . but I'm sure some fiction fodder will come from this too, lol. Already had one non-fiction piece come from it, lol . . . but it was enjoyed by readers ;) So . . . I guess that makes it all good? LOL.

The problem is . . . what's enjoyed by one, isn't enjoyed by all . . . which may have something to do with where conspiracy theories come from . . . ?

Sorry, further off topic . . .

People are fascinated by relationships and emotional drama, so of course they would enjoy that. ;)
As for conspiracy theories, I think that is too complex a topic to really lump together into one thing.


Rodehard:


Is this an analogy for what happened to the lost knowledge and how fast it can be lost. With the plans written down, and only a few thousand years of "progress" passing, they could only build a reasonably accurate copy of the ship, and that was by trail and error.


Good point. There are a lot of ancient items and structures that we would be unable to reproduce today, due to either lack of knowledge or lack of technical capability. We are always learning more, but it still says a lot about what we have forgotten.



Another question about Noah and the Ark.
Limiting it to only the animals in the area Noah lived in and limited it to one pair of each genus instead of each species, taking young animals instead adults, leaving off the long-extinct animals, (some versions claim there were dinosaurs on the ark) and doing everything else Noah could do to reduce payload and still fit the story, an ark of the size specified in the Bible would not be large enough to carry a cargo of animals and food sufficient to repopulate the earth, especially if animals that are now extinct were required to be aboard. (Dodo bird etc.)

The earlier myths do not assume that all the animals would die and had to be put on the Ark. The animals in the earlier versions are domesticated animals, for labor and food, not wild ones. The Ark was the means for allowing civilization to continue, because those animals would have been vital.

Interestingly however, scientists have found evidence of ancient animals that seemed to have died very quickly. For example, dozens of mammoths which were rapidly frozen, so rapidly that they still had food in their mouths, their fur and flesh fully intact, and the full undigested contents of their stomach could still be recovered. It is suggested that they all drowned or asphyxiated but.... what happened, and so quickly?


And the LORD said, 'Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.' So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.'

When ever I point out to my more knowledgeable Bible thumping friends that the reason the story of Babylons says mankind had his languages scattered, was not arrogance as seems to be the common story, but rather to limit our potential, they fall back to the idea God did not want everyone living in one place, that he wanted them to fill the face of the earth.

I never really bought that because if God meant that, then that is what he would have told them.

Tonight I was reading a story about the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force irritating the British Museum because they have been camped on the ruins of Babylon for the last few years. I was unaware that we had found Babylon, and more unaware that they had found the remains of what could have been a 2 mile high tower. While both of those facts surprised me, what really got me wanting to ask a question here in the forum.

I had always thought Babylon was the only city on earth at the time, but it was not. There were millions of people living all over the world at the time. So we were being fruitful and filling the face of the earth.

If we were a multinational species by then, it takes away the "god did not like major metropolitan areas" explanation.

So why did he scramble the languages? Were already scattered all over the earth, at least according to the follsil records, and ruins we have found.

Am I wrong to assume that God says what he means? OR Did ET see what it was we would become and intervene to prevent that.


They found Babylon back in the 1800s. ;) We know a lot about ancient Iraq now, and indeed, the Tower of Babel may have been a Ziggurat, a huge step-pyramid.

Although, the original Babylon might have been Eridu - both cities were originally called Bab-ili, gateway of the gods. Eridu was acknowledged by the Sumerians to be the oldest city on earth, and indeed was one of the oldest Sumerian cities, if not THE oldest. And it did have a Ziggurat.


---> "And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."
or
"Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

According to this, they built the tower in pride and fear. They wanted to reach heaven via a building, and they wanted to become famous and reputable, otherwise they feared they would be dispersed for whatever reason.

--> "and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."
or
"If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

What do people acting in pride and fear "imagine or plan to do"? The same kinds of things we see people today doing in pride and fear. Certainly not the ideal society that you envisioned, Rodehard.

[Rodehard]

What do people acting in pride and fear "imagine or plan to do"? The same kinds of things we see people today doing in pride and fear. Certainly not the ideal society that you envisioned, Rodehard.

But did someone do it for our own good, or out of fear of the great race we would become? I mean someone just tired to wack the planet. They see our resilience and realize payback is a bitch so they delay our dealing our Justice. Perhaps like in Stargate SG-1, we are the 5th race and someone tried to stop us from growing up.

If you play forward what we can do today, and if we do not destroy ourselves before then, in 100 years poverty disease, famine war, hopelessness, will all be banished. Maslow's hierarchy will be fulfilled for every man woman and child on the planet. We can replicate matter from sunlight, have new technologies that when perfected will give unlimited source of clean free energy, and will soon find earth like planets with life. The moment that happens mankind will be united in a way no one has thought possible since Babylon.

The exciting thing for me is the new brake troughs that say FTL is possible as soon as we find the right kind of gas for the ship. They even have working shields in prototype. Yes they only protect a dime size object, but give us a month.

Imagine Maslow's Hierarchy being fulfilled 7,000 years ago. How many billion lives would have been spared from war, famine, disease, hopelessness. Where would we be now if our "free will" had not been raped.

There are also stories of Angles coming to earth to teach men to go to war. Again why would God do that.

[Sincerelee]

AW's right. Imagine how screwed up we'd be if everyone was motivated by fear! We would not have PUA, for sure.

I think God, in His Divine Providence, saw thousands of years into the future and knew the world needed Mystery and Style.

[Rodehard]

AW's right. Imagine how screwed up we'd be if everyone was motivated by fear! We would not have PUA, for sure.

I think God, in His Divine Providence, saw thousands of years into the future and knew the world needed Mystery and Style.

Why were they afraid... someone just tried to wack them. If we were able to do anything we wanted to then we would not have to be afraid. And in societies with abundant resources like the Aztecs, all the thing we despise most in mankind are non-existence. most recent thinking on the Aztec's is that once their God-King came and united them via peace they had 100's of years of Utopia. Aside from sacrificing people. It was not until the Spanish came with war and greed that the balance changed.

The thing for me is while I believe in God, I don't take the stories as fact due to all the times they have been proven to be wrong, or altered over time.

[L.A. Tripp]

But did someone do it for our own good, or out of fear of the great race we would become? I mean someone just tired to wack the planet. They see our resilience and realize payback is a bitch so they delay our dealing our Justice. Perhaps like in Stargate SG-1, we are the 5th race and someone tried to stop us from growing up.
Gotta love SyFy, lol.

If you play forward what we can do today, and if we do not destroy ourselves before then,
This is the problem. If we DO continue at our current rate with everything, we WILL destroy ourselves before anything else could happen. Hell, when you think about the economy (and it IS hard for most people at the moment), paranoia, murders, etc . . .

in 100 years poverty disease, famine war, hopelessness, will all be banished.

No way, no how. Not the way we are going. We are definitely NOT on the path to banish all of that, especially not poverty. Not disease either, actually. Every time they "cure" one with drugs, they actually seem to create another one that pops up. Man made drugs aren't exactly the miracle cure all the time.

Maslow's hierarchy will be fulfilled for every man woman and child on the planet. We can replicate matter from sunlight,
replicate matter from sunlight . . . any differently than what is already going on in nature?

have new technologies that when perfected will give unlimited source of clean free energy,
With what money . . . and what politicians will stand in the way?
and will soon find earth like planets with life.
How do we KNOW this for a fact? Isn't it speculation at this point?
The moment that happens mankind will be united in a way no one has thought possible since Babylon.

The exciting thing for me is the new brake troughs that say FTL is possible as soon as we find the right kind of gas for the ship. They even have working shields in prototype. Yes they only protect a dime size object, but give us a month.

Imagine Maslow's Hierarchy being fulfilled 7,000 years ago. How many billion lives would have been spared from war, famine, disease, hopelessness. Where would we be now if our "free will" had not been raped.
I don't think we would have accomplished all this back then either. Humans tend to be great at fucking things up all on their own, lol.

There are also stories of Angles coming to earth to teach men to go to war. Again why would God do that.
Who said God sent those Angels?

[L.A. Tripp]

united them via peace they had 100's of years of Utopia. Aside from sacrificing people.

Some utopia . . . lol . . . pretty well confirming my point above. Thanks man ;) lol

It wasn't utopia for everyone ;)

[Sincerelee]

Rode, God promised He would not destroy the earth again by a flood. They said, "Yeah, well, just in case, we'll build this."

I can imagine, hundreds of years passed since the flood. Not one hint of another flood has come. THe children of Shem, Ham, and Japheth all heard half the story...God sent a flood...but missed the second half...God promised he would not flood the entire earth again., or they heard it, but didn't believe it.

Also, why would God fear anything humanity could do? He's God! We would all stop breathing, were it not for His benevolence.

Man, as he has advanced, hasn't gotten better. He's gotten more destructive and more oppressive.

The fear of destruction and the pride of thinking, "If everyone just did things MY way, everything would be all right," has gotten more oppressive and destructive as technology progresses.

100 years ago, we didn't have nuclear warheads pointing at everyone else. We didn't have Middle eastern Quran thumpers threatening to blow up cities with a suitcase.

200 years ago, we didn't have health nazis telling us what we can and cannot do, where we live and work. We didn't have speed cameras on lone stretches of highways to generate revenue for the local police department.

[Rodehard]

replicate matter from sunlight . . . any differently than what is already going on in nature?

Yes... have you ever seen the replicators on Star Trek? The theory behind them is that matter and energy are interchangeable. The light to carbon experiment took the energy from a laser, enough to power LA for a day, and converted it into a particle of carbon the size of a period at the end of a sentence. Like computers which used to require 2 story buildings to get a tiny bit of memory and in time grew to 1T lap tops, this will too progress, and in time we will be able to replicate big macs, large fries and a diet soda.

If the theory that some all powerful "they" were out there to stop advancements so "they" could maintain power were true none of the great things we are beginning to do could happen. However the way our world is set up, no "they" could exert that much power over so many Nations with differing goals.

Do you remember the MAD Doctrine: Mutual assured destruction (MAD) is a doctrine of military strategy in which a full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two opposing sides would effectively result in the destruction of both the attacker and the defender.

The problem with it there is always one tiny country that does not care about the outcome for anyone but themselves. Like France making cold fusion work there is always a 3rd party willing to use the technology if it benefits them. Advances can be slowed but never stopped.

When the US laughed Pons and Flieshamn out of the country for their cold fusion results, they went to France. Then France announced it had replicated their findings so MIT went to work on it and again found it barely works. Same is true for Zero point energy, there are countries that found ways to make it work; now the US has 3 multibillion dollar experiments where they can make it work, just barely.

With the technologies we have in the pipeline, and the inability of any one government to control them, we have one of the things we need to build Utopia. The only thing that stands in our way is the fact we are not a united world which allows fighting between rival groups.

and will soon find earth like planets with life......How do we KNOW this for a fact?

Excuse we while I go off reservation for a moment. :) I don’t believe the Pope is omnipotent, but the Vatican does have a great deal of the lost knowledge in its archives. When the Pope says that ET exists, it’s probably more than a guess. I would bet he is hedging his bets to maintain control of the church when ET shows up.

With what we have discovered in the last 5 years about FTL being possible, the number of planets out there, etc. It is probable ET is real and has come here. But if you have ever heard of the frog in the boiling water metaphor you can see why ET does not just come and land in Central park. They have to introduce themselves in baby steps.

Once they do then mankind will unite in a way no one has dreamed of since Babylon. Add that to the technology we are coming out with now, and its a bright future.

Did you know that in our great grand parent’s time (pre WWI) that the Christian faiths taught that first mankind would bring about paradise on earth then Christ would return? That changed after WWII to only God can bring about peace on Earth.

Christians gave up. When you do that the only way to go is downhill and the only future you can see is deus ex machina, so you stop trying, stop believing that we can do great things in essence we become AFC’s.

We didn't have Middle Eastern Quran thumpers threatening to blow up cities with a suitcase......The fear of destruction and the pride of thinking, "If everyone just did things MY way, everything would be all right," has gotten more oppressive and destructive as technology progresses.


And isn't that exactly what the Christians do.... do it my way or go to Hell. Not only did we wage war against the Muslims for centuries because they would not convert, something Christ specifically said not to do, but we Christians even war with each other over insignificant stuff that God probably does not care about. We look at each other and say "you don't believe Jesus wore a Rolex like I do, you are soooooo going to hell." Then we fight over it rather than let the Spirit guide us to be one bread one body.

[Rodehard]

the biggest curse and blessing God gave me is to think like the Greeks did when Christianity came to them, to filter what I am told through logic.

Bill Clinton and his "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" was at best ambiguous. What sexual relations varies from one person to the next. That is the way politicians and the weak do things.

For me if the Bible is God unaltered word, then when he says "this is what I did" he means exactly that. No fancy word wrangling, not loop holes, no gray areas, no wiggle room. Like the king of all Alphas he says what he means and means what he says.

So if Christ says "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." he does not mean go gather up your armies and kick the shit out of them till they worship me ala Constantine.

Similar to the dwarfs in the Last Battle, I choose cunning over belief in man or what he says God wants me to do. (drink the Kool aid)

[L.A. Tripp]

Yes... have you ever seen the replicators on Star Trek? The theory behind them is that matter and energy are interchangeable. The light to carbon experiment took the energy from a laser, enough to power LA for a day, and converted it into a particle of carbon the size of a period at the end of a sentence. Like computers which used to require 2 story buildings to get a tiny bit of memory and in time grew to 1T lap tops, this will too progress, and in time we will be able to replicate big macs, large fries and a diet soda.
I just personally find some of that stuff a bit far fetched, but I see what you're saying. I just don't see how our nourishment could be just basically made out of thin air. Not that big mac, fries, and diet soda are nourishment, lol . . . so that might actually work ;)

If the theory that some all powerful "they" were out there to stop advancements so "they" could maintain power were true none of the great things we are beginning to do could happen. However the way our world is set up, no "they" could exert that much power over so many Nations with differing goals.
I guess that would depend on the size of the "they" . . . such as an all powerful being.

Do you remember the MAD Doctrine: Mutual assured destruction (MAD) is a doctrine of military strategy in which a full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two opposing sides would effectively result in the destruction of both the attacker and the defender.
Yep, I remember that. Makes complete sense too.

The problem with it there is always one tiny country that does not care about the outcome for anyone but themselves. Like France making cold fusion work there is always a 3rd party willing to use the technology if it benefits them. Advances can be slowed but never stopped.
Even at that, the destruction would end up being total. No matter who starts it, everyone else will want to "end" it . . . which brings about the total destruction regardless . . . hence the issue with humans heading down the spiral . . .

When the US laughed Pons and Flieshamn out of the country for their cold fusion results, they went to France. Then France announced it had replicated their findings so MIT went to work on it and again found it barely works. Same is true for Zero point energy, there are countries that found ways to make it work; now the US has 3 multibillion dollar experiments where they can make it work, just barely.
Just barely . . . is all it takes, lol.

With the technologies we have in the pipeline, and the inability of any one government to control them, we have one of the things we need to build Utopia. The only thing that stands in our way is the fact we are not a united world which allows fighting between rival groups.
Do you really think though, that humans themselves can ever be completely united? Without any external influence?

Excuse we while I go off reservation for a moment. :) I don’t believe the Pope is omnipotent, but the Vatican does have a great deal of the lost knowledge in its archives. When the Pope says that ET exists, it’s probably more than a guess. I would bet he is hedging his bets to maintain control of the church when ET shows up.
Glad to hear you don't think he's omnipotent ;) I agree with you. I also don't doubt the Vatican has all that shit in store, in it's archives. I also don't doubt that they are hedging their bets. One reason I won't touch the Catholic Church anymore.

With what we have discovered in the last 5 years about FTL being possible, the number of planets out there, etc. It is probable ET is real and has come here. But if you have ever heard of the frog in the boiling water metaphor you can see why ET does not just come and land in Central park. They have to introduce themselves in baby steps.

Once they do then mankind will unite in a way no one has dreamed of since Babylon. Add that to the technology we are coming out with now, and its a bright future.
Hence the external influence I mentioned above.

Did you know that in our great grand parent’s time (pre WWI) that the Christian faiths taught that first mankind would bring about paradise on earth then Christ would return? That changed after WWII to only God can bring about peace on Earth.
That theology is actually still around.

And isn't that exactly what the Christians do.... do it my way or go to Hell. Not only did we wage war against the Muslims for centuries because they would not convert, something Christ specifically said not to do, but we Christians even war with each other over insignificant stuff that God probably does not care about. We look at each other and say "you don't believe Jesus wore a Rolex like I do, you are soooooo going to hell." Then we fight over it rather than let the Spirit guide us to be one bread one body.
Which is why so many stereotypical Christians (just labeled that way obviously) give the blanket of Christians a bad name. Because people only see that shit and not what real Christians stand for.

[Rodehard]

Do you really think though, that humans themselves can ever be completely united? Without any external influence?

There are some Countries, like China who are positioned so that they could bring about a one world government without a nuclear war. They hold $1T of US debt and if they dumped that on the world at once, the US would be crippled.

Something else that is far fetched is that extremely low frequency (ELF) waves (The Schumann Resonance ) naturally exist in the earth's electromagnetic cavity. These 'earth brainwaves' are identical to the frequency spectrum of our human brainwaves and the brainwaves of every living creature on the planet. that 7.8 Hz frequency correlates to the 7.8% average limits on how much of the human brain can be utilized at one time. In tests done at Harvard, when someone is hypnotized, that frequency changes.

Tesla was working on a way to manipulate that frequency but quit when he determined that doing so could lead to the ability to control every mind on the planet. The CIA got some bad media in the 60's for manipulating that frequency to control people minds. They claim it did not work but they kept working on it.

Think about how the MAD doctrine would apply to a "good" technology... if Haiti found an energy source that could meet all of its energy needs for the next 10,000 years, even one that could not be made into a weapon, they would use it regardless of who wanted to cover it up. They need it to bad not to use it, and they could sell the excess energy to take their country of of "poorest" to richest".

The US and Russia might want to stifle such technology, but there will always be someone willing to use it whether it be a weapon or zero point energy.

[L.A. Tripp]

Yep, China does hold the biggest part of our debt. However, even if China made a move like that, I think American's in general would work around that still. I don't think American's, for the most part, would just cave to something like that. The president would, yeah, but I don't think the mass public would.

That's interesting about the ELF waves. I don't know anything about that one.

[azazels_wolf]

Why were they afraid... someone just tried to wack them. If we were able to do anything we wanted to then we would not have to be afraid.


Well, if you go back to theology again, fear was born in humanity with the Fall, along with its source - the ego.

"7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." - Genesis 3


There was no fear or shame before this.

[Rodehard]

Yep, China does hold the biggest part of our debt. However, even if China made a move like that, I think American's in general would work around that still. I don't think American's, for the most part, would just cave to something like that. The president would, yeah, but I don't think the mass public would.

But how would a bankrupt country survive. They'd dump the Euro too so our allies could not help.

[Sincerelee]

Excuse we while I go off reservation for a moment. :) I don’t believe the Pope is omnipotent, but the Vatican does have a great deal of the lost knowledge in its archives. When the Pope says that ET exists, it’s probably more than a guess. I would bet he is hedging his bets to maintain control of the church when ET shows up.
Since the Libraries at Alexandria, the bewailing of lost knowledge has be in legends. I do not believe that. I believe we are progressing in knowledge, with advancements in science. There is very few ways we could have had discoveries in ancient times without the structured disciplines of science.

Unfortunately, in a zeal to oppose Creationism and Intelligent Design, scientists are abandoning many of the disciplines that caused our advances in the 20th century. This zeal is fueled by the idea that religion has stood int he way of the advancement of science.

I agree religion has, but Christianity hasn't. Nevertheless, the hope is that once religion is done away with will unite the world because religion is so divisive. This is faulty logic because it ignores the fact that people belive many thigns without a substantive means to prove such a belief is well founded.

If all religions were removed, someone would claim an unlikely event that pointed to a mysticism, as evidenced by the many hexes and curses in baseball...lucky shirts in any sports event...or the PUA witht he lucky shirt... that would once again divide people into believers and non-believers.

In order to unite the world, you would need to eliminate independent thought and self-esteem, replacing it with unified thought and esteem for the community of mankind. You would have a Borg system.

Once they do then mankind will unite in a way no one has dreamed of since Babylon. Add that to the technology we are coming out with now, and its a bright future.
It's a dark future. As man progresses, so does his ability to destroy everything. And, his desire to bring the world to its destruction in order to control it is maddening.
Did you know that in our great grand parent’s time (pre WWI) that the Christian faiths taught that first mankind would bring about paradise on earth then Christ would return? That changed after WWII to only God can bring about peace on Earth.
No, Rode, you are wrong. Pre-millinialism has been around for a very long time. Paul taught it in his epistles. John wrote the prophecy of it in Revelation.

Christianity that purports that man cannot achieve holiness on his own, but relies wholly on the work of Christ on the cross for our sin sacrifice, and His actions for our sanctification and holiness, sees that in man is a corruption that makes it impossible for man to prepare the earth for Christ's reign. Instead the world needs His direct rule to bring in the kingdom.

Maybe the Catholic Church has changed its ideas, but that would not be the first time that they have admitted a dogma was incorrect, when contradictory information id blatant int he Scriptures.
And isn't that exactly what the Christians do.... do it my way or go to Hell. Not only did we wage war against the Muslims for centuries because they would not convert, something Christ specifically said not to do, but we Christians even war with each other over insignificant stuff that God probably does not care about. We look at each other and say "you don't believe Jesus wore a Rolex like I do, you are soooooo going to hell." Then we fight over it rather than let the Spirit guide us to be one bread one body.
Rode, we do not compromise. If asked to side with popular thought or witht he Bible, we choose the Bible. The Bible says all who die without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord go to hell. We didn't right it. We accept it.

As for waging war against the Muslims, if you are referring tot he Crusades, first, it was the Catholic Church, not Christianity as a whole that called for them. It was men who hoped for salvation through works who pursued the idea of freeing jerusalem. Not to mention leaders who sought riches through conquest. It was not motivated by Christian standards.

So long as men are personally motivated, you will not get unity. Even in a world where mankind is unified, and energy is plentiful, you will have prideful men who believe they deserve what others cannot have, and desire to be looked upon as superior to others.

[L.A. Tripp]

But how would a bankrupt country survive. They'd dump the Euro too so our allies could not help.

Bartering. We used to do that, we can do it again.

[Rodehard]

It's a dark future. As man progresses, so does his ability to destroy everything. And, his desire to bring the world to its destruction in order to control it is maddening.

This is what you see because you are pessimistic.

The hardest part about dealing with Christan, even those who deserve respect is they ignore any facts that do not go with their beliefs. I know Christians who refuse to believe man has been to the moon because their particular church taught them that the Bible says man cannot go to the moon. You explain to them about the mirrors Apollo left on the moon and they just keep on with "na na na na na na" I am not listening to you.

You can show them how Constantine hand picked and manipulated the First Council of Nicaea to fit the needs of Rome and prevent a war between Christians and pagans, or show them that the council sifted through 100's of writings and choose the ones that suited him best, or show them that he still worshiped pagan gods till his death, and they will just stick their heads in the sand and deny it. If he were such a good Christian, why did he build monuments and offer sacrifices to Roman Gods till his death.


This zeal is fueled by the idea that religion has stood int he way of the advancement of science.

It has and it still tries...

Did you know that in our great grand parent’s time (pre WWI) that the Christian faiths taught that first mankind would bring about paradise on earth then Christ would return? That changed after WWII to only God can bring about peace on Earth.

My grandparents told me this... I am not saying it is what the Bible says, but what the interpretation of the Bible at that time was claimed to say. Point being Christianity changes to fit the needs of the time they are in.

[Rodehard]

Bartering. We used to do that, we can do it again.

But can the US support its 400M people without a global economy.

For example oil... we cannot meet our countries needs with what we can produce here. We use about 25 million barrels of oil per day in peace time. We produce 5 million barrels a day. There would be no way to produce goods to sell or barter with outside of the US.

With 5x the population in the US now as there was last time we were a bartering economy, I don't know if our infrastructure would be able to sustain more than 20% of our population, esp in war time. Not even the nuclear powered stuff could be maintained without oil etc..

What would save the US is our ingenuity. It wold not take long to invent a way to become top dog again, IF the need were great.

[Rodehard]

So long as men are personally motivated, you will not get unity. Even in a world where mankind is unified, and energy is plentiful, you will have prideful men who believe they deserve what others cannot have, and desire to be looked upon as superior to others. How can you have something others cannot have when all you have to do to get it is walk in the kitchen and replicate it? With the deconstruction of matter things we are doing now money will become meaningless, all we have to work on is bettering ourselves.

Clinton proved with inner city families being transplanted to upper middle class neighborhood neighborhoods that Maslows hierarchy works just as predicted.

271

There is a legend that during the Drafting of the Declaration of Independence there was an eclipse. All of the founding fathers, fearing it was the end of the world, panicked and started to leave to go home or to their church, except Jefferson. When they asked Jefferson why he was not running home to be with his family he replied "If this is the hour of my master's return he will find me at the work he set before me to do, not running to hide from him." The other founding fathers sat back down to finish their work.

Jefferson is my kind of Christian, while in his mind it may have been the end of time, he was not willing to give in to fear and doubt, but to give his last breath using the talents God gave him, working to make a better world.

Sadly most Christians are like the rest of the fathers, they see a shadow and worry that it is the end of time, they run and hide, tear their clothes, throw dirt on themselves, and wait for God to rescue them. In doing that they damn themselves to live in fear and nver know what it feels like to use Gods gifts to their fullest.

[Sincerelee]

Hey, guys. I realized how far I have gone away from talking PUA and gotten into other things...religion, finances, world government, and everything else.

I finally realized how much time I am spending in non-PUA discussion. having said that, I am going to only participate in PUA techniques discussion.

That means I won't be in on this or many other conversations I have been in lately, anymore.

Having said THAT, it is good for a PUA to be well rounded in knowledge, so by all means do not let my decision influence you decisions.

[L.A. Tripp]

Rode, you're right, it IS our ingenuity . . . but even that would have to start off with bartering if, in fact, we lost everything. We'd have to start from scratch again. But we, as Americans, could and would do that, and as you said, become top dog again. Obviously not ALL Americans, but those of us that are willing to press on and survive, would.

I wouldn't say religion has stood in the way of science. There are religious scientists. I have to agree that as far as religion or religious wars, it's pretty much been the Catholic Church, not religion itself.

I wouldn't say Christianity changes to fit the times we are in. I'd say PEOPLE change their IDEAS to fit the times we are in.

[L.A. Tripp]

]
Clinton proved with inner city families being transplanted to upper middle class neighborhood neighborhoods that Maslows hierarchy works just as predicted.

271


What do you mean with this? What did Clinton do? I think I'm out of the loop on this one . . . or just having really bad memory, lol.

[Rodehard]

What do you mean with this? What did Clinton do? I think I'm out of the loop on this one . . . or just having really bad memory, lol.

He took 300 inner city families and moved them into upper class neighborhoods, private schools etc. The environment of having more than they needed screwed with the parents but the kids all "evolved" from potential gang dangers to doctors lawyers, etc.

I lost a few grand on a trade lat night because I was point here and not watching a trade take place. I'm kind of where Sin is at. Time to focus on game more so if I delay replying its just I am closing more than my (and your share) of HB10's

Live with Passion.

[L.A. Tripp]

Rode, do you have a link or something that I can look at about Clinton's experiment?

[The Wild One]

Well yesturday I had a monumental experience. One that involved actually seeing evidence of what I have recently speculated about for a long time. Threw my resources I've discovered beyond a shadow of a doubt their are in fact intelligent Alien beings that do exist. It is not a scientific myth and it is a very real closely guarded secret.

Threw sources I've been lucky enough to see things I'm not supposed to see. Now that I have seen with my own two eyes I can tell you all this stuff about Aliens is real. I'm not a religous man so fairy tales are not my thing but this is real. Their is life beyond this planet it exists in abundance, and this further for me proves theirs so so so much people don't understand about the universe.

I've seen documents that I'm not supposed to see to verify this buy a source that is beyond reliable... So I take the existence of Alien life to be fact as of this moment forward.

I also got to see military gear that is so advanced it will blow your mind. Sh*t that makes your head spin.. They literally have craft reversed engineered off this stuff that is man made but looks so out of this world you'd think it was alien.

P.S. To verify my source or any information would endanger my friends life, and military career so that's all you need to know. I like knowing this answer realizing how many live in ignorance of this truth.

[Conspirer]

And yet even with the access to this top secret and potentially deadly information (which you've posted about on the most watched media) you still can not tell the difference between threw (to throw something) and through (to the entire extent (in your use))

You seem like a reliable source.

Conspirer

[The Wild One]

I'm not a good writer, and I just wrote that five seconds ago. Believe what you will but Aliens are real man. Sorry if you can't get behind it.. It's your problem not mine.

Also in case you don't know but being that I'm not supposed to know what I know makes this all dangerous for very good reasons. Your living in a world that's a cave, and the ones ruling knowledge keep you in it. I'm happy knowing I don't live in the cave with everyone else anymore in the dark.

[The Wild One]

Well yesturday I had a monumental experience. One that involved actually seeing evidence of what I have recently speculated about for a long time. Threw my resources I've discovered beyond a shadow of a doubt their are in fact intelligent Alien beings that do exist. It is not a scientific myth and it is a very real closely guarded secret.

Threw sources I've been lucky enough to see things I'm not supposed to see. Now that I have seen with my own two eyes I can tell you all this stuff about Aliens is real. I'm not a religous man so fairy tales are not my thing but this is real. Their is life beyond this planet it exists in abundance, and this further for me proves theirs so so so much people don't understand about the universe.

I've seen documents that I'm not supposed to see to verify this buy a source that is beyond reliable... So I take the existence of Alien life to be fact as of this moment forward.

I also got to see military gear that is so advanced it will blow your mind. Sh*t that makes your head spin.. They literally have craft reversed engineered off this stuff that is man made but looks so out of this world you'd think it was alien.

P.S. To verify my source or any information would endanger my friends life, and military career so that's all you need to know. I like knowing this answer realizing how many live in ignorance of this truth.

- Joe Rogan On UFO's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me6jLTR0Fto
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1696969114
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x63xun_joe-rogan-standup-idiots-of-the-pas_fun

[RAMM]

Life exists in other places too, but I wouldn't waste my time concerning about it. There are way more important things to do here on earth.

[Rodehard]

Life exists in other places too, but I wouldn't waste my time concerning about it. There are way more important things to do here on earth.

That's is only because you have not been abducted by women from the planet HB10 and treated like their sex slave. Used for sex again and again and again with the only thanks you get being a semi fancy dinner. Hot women passing you around like a $2.00 hooker never wanting a commitment, never wanting anything but sex from you....all you are is arm candy and sex...

You know now that I see it in witting, I am not sure what the hell women are complaining about. I'd be bragging my ass off... just like I already do...

[Sincerelee]

You know now that I see it in witting, I am not sure what the hell women are complaining about. I'd be bragging my ass off... just like I already do...

The difference is, men increase in value with every sexual pursuit. Women decrease in value. men become more proficient. Women become less tight.

[RAMM]

if you go beyond egoic mind, you neither increase nor decrease, you do not need to brag about it to others and you do not give importance to yourself because of it, not even privately.

Then all of this loses importance, as pretty much everything else mind related.

Women complain becuase of ego. Men brag because of ego. Just the same.
Without ego you stop having "relative value". Relative means relative to this or that. It means I have value compared to this other person who get's less HBs than me. I have little value compared to this other person who gets more.
Without ego, you gain absolute value, invariable, totally content free, comparison free. You can no longer feel a loser or a winner, you can no longer have feelings about yourself. It's so liberatory.

[Rodehard]

I don't need to brag I just enjoy it. lol....
What I find interesting abu tthe whle alien thing, is when people talk about it, they tend to ignore basic facts. I believe it is out there, but the some of the "evidence" is so funny.

My son was watching this special on the Chariots of the Gods guy. There was a part a carving of some Aztec 'god" in his space shop blasting off. Since propellant rockets are useless for interstellar travel, why would the aliens have them. The technology would be 1000s of years behind them. It would be like us using sticks and rocks to fight F-22 Raptors.

For what it is wirth: Duke University recently "cloaked" a small ceramic block. In doing so they violated the same specail relativity rules that say FTL is imposssible. I have not finished the paper yet, pretty Math heavy, but impressive.

[Sincerelee]

I read about the cloaking, too. Interesting, couple that with the Goddard experiments in creating gravity, and MIT's work on slowing the speed of light down. It's pretty groovy that years of Star Trek watching is paying off. Developing a warp engine sounds really cool, and close to fruition.

[RAMM]

Yes, using propellant engines is totally useless. What aliens use is probabli a "merkaba". I think it's something related to Tesla coils as used in the Philadelphia experiment. A huge high frequency electromagnetic field envelping matter transorms it into a merkaba and allows for instant displacement in space and time, but the guys who did philadelphia experiment didn't know what they had created or how they could use it and it was disaster.

@Sincerelee.
Since you're a christian, a merkaba is the original word for the chariot of fire, what allowed Jesus to ascend to heaven. If you recall the Bible about this, he was envelloped into a ball of light and just flew to heaven. The spirit does generate high frequency electromagnetic waves(as has been shown in experiments recently) in that sense and explains saint's miracles and Jesus' ascension to heaven. I am totally positive that the affirmations in the bible are literally true. Merkaba could be the same as what you refer to as "cloacking".

Can you link me to the cloacking thing? I'd like to read more about it.

[Sincerelee]

I am familiar with the thought that UFOs and otherworld travel is a physical manifestation of spirit beings travelling. I have no proof of this, and though the argument tries to appeal to logic, to link the phenominon to a similar Biblical account, I am no where ready to accept that they are the same experience.

[RAMM]

I realize that as a "thought" it seems pretty far pushed. I might have had a harder time accepting this had I not personally known some people who do actually accomplish that feat(no names).

And, when you see someone do that, you suddely realize that all those legendary phenomena(and the biblical ones) are actually the same experience. Every man in every age would have talked about it in totally different terms and it is hard to put their accounts in relation to eachother.

But for example, in modern times, the same "story" is told by Castaneda in his later books. It seems don Juan Matus did that merkaba thing every day in order to meet Castaneda. He actually lived hundreds of miles away, and every time Castaneda would drop to visit him in that place, he would appear out of nowhere. It seems that Castaneda himself accomplished that feat at least twice, but.. well, I don't trust him much.. I wouldn't be surprised if he was lying when talking about himself.

High level Yogis seem to travel like that too a lot.

[Rodehard]

I remember a research paper one of my professors did on Remote viewing.

In short was an 8 way blind experiment to test Remote Viewers. (RV) A photographer was sent out to take hundreds of photographs of the Houston area. He then sealed the photos in 8 x 11 envelopes, numbered the envelopes and made a list of what # went with what location using exact locations (GPS). A series of blind were set up between the photographer and the experimenter so that not cues could be given.

The remote viewers were given the task to choose an envelope then through the same blind the photographer was telephoned with the message “envelope number X” at which point he would to that location.

The job of the remote viewer was to “find” the photographer and draw what the photographer saw. Several RVs did the tests and some of the results were probably more than coincidence. The one that amazed me though was an RV who had chosen an envelope that turned out to have a photo of the Houston Harbor in it. The photographer went to the harbor and waited while the RV “’found” him and drew what the photographer was looking at, including the Russian freighter that was pulling in at the time the photographer was there, down to the Cyrillic name on it.

There was a Discovery special on the RV a few years back that reproduced the experiment. Again the results were probably above coincidence.

[RAMM]

Yes exactly! But I'm way beyond the need to experiment scientifically in order to prove to myself that it is possible. There have been thousands of experiments litterally, that show these kinds of phenomena are totally natural. And remote viewing is kids' play compared to some more interesting phenomena related to this.

I have done myself telepathy and related stuff. I mean, you don't have to be born a "remote viewer" LOL.. the whole idea of being a remote viewer is silly, it's like being an x-men ahaha
This is tuff we can all learn to do, and much much more.

In one occasion, I actually saw beyond a 1 foot thick concrete wall. I just knew what was behind it. Telepathy over 15 miles.. done that too.
Touching a person and having her FEEL pressure in the exact place where I was touching her in my mind over 400 miles, done that too. Even gave her a physical scratch once. I was also able to feel it myself, when she did the touching and kissing.

Receiving and giving an orgasm over more than 400 miles without touching ourselves and without an errection? Yep, done that too.

Shifting perceptive point in my body and perceiving the world from a total different perspective for days? I won't even begin to describe how cool that is.

Having premonitory dreams that come true every time? Done that.

Influencing "casual processes"? Flipping coins, throwing dice, electronic generated numbers? I am at times able to influence that.

I did number 3 on a die 17 times in a row.
I'm the luckyest fella when paying poker or dice. I still get off days, but usually I'm served a flush or 4 of a kind without changing cards at all.

I don't want to look like I'm bragging. Just want to make you see why I don't need any more proves that we can all do this stuff, and much more.

And while I can't yet do more of the advanced stuff I know people who do it, and know examples of more extreme phenomena. I can't give names.. but I could go on talking about "other" things happening and how they work.. and even how this can be achieved.
The "law of attraction" is made up BS. It's totally limitting to think that there is this law and that's it. We can do so much more.

[Rodehard]

We play this game in Aikido, take a deck of cards shuffle, each person draws high card does the face value of the card in exercises. The dealing of the cards is just like poker, everyone gets a turn to shuffle, cut etc. The only difference is Sensi will choose the order in which we draw. He never gets the high card. I've even brought a pair of brand new decks, and out of 500 draws between 3 people he never draws the high card.

One of the things that makes me question our understanding of the Bible, is the story of the tower of Babylon. In the old texts as well as in the Epic of Gilgamesh, it says Yahweh scrambled the languages because if humanity stayed together as one there would be nothing we could not do. Christ talked about similar things, faith the size of a mustard seed moving mountains. It seems that the power of the human species has the potential to be limitless.

I have had those moments, esp when trading currencies, where I know what is going to happen before it does. There is a feeling of detachment almost like I am not there but watching from afar, and I see the changes coming. When I try to bring my conscious mind to bear on it, that state fades away.

Recently I was walking into a building on campus. There are a set of outer doors, then a small entry way and another set of double doors. While I was approaching the outer doors I could "see" an old girlfriend on the pay phone inside and around the corner. It was very vivid, she had on a white low cut tee shirt, gold necklace, her hair up.... I could not physical see her, and I had not seen her in real life for 10 years, yet when I walked in she was standing there exactly as I had "seen" her moments before.

[RAMM]

We play this game in Aikido, take a deck of cards shuffle, each person draws high card does the face value of the card in exercises. The dealing of the cards is just like poker, everyone gets a turn to shuffle, cut etc. The only difference is Sensi will choose the order in which we draw. He never gets the high card. I've even brought a pair of brand new decks, and out of 500 draws between 3 people he never draws the high card.
I believe, the ability to control casual processes is one of the easiest to get. At least it was the first one for me. I believe it comes with a calm mind. Peole in martial arts do this :)


One of the things that makes me question our understanding of the Bible, is the story of the tower of Babylon. In the old texts as well as in the Epic of Gilgamesh, it says Yahweh scrambled the languages because if humanity stayed together as one there would be nothing we could not do. Christ talked about similar things, faith the size of a mustard seed moving mountains. It seems that the power of the human species has the potential to be limitless.
I do believe we have that potential, but I don't think it is true that God/Jesus would want to limit our powers. On the countrary. I think we're limiting ourselves, through giving into Lust and the other 6 "sins". I don't believe in sins of course. What happens instead is that those behaviours waste our energy. For example if you abstain from sex/masturbation, eat half of normal, rest enough and meditate, do these things together, in a week you'll notice changes. I mean it, one single week of "purity" and you'll feel physically and mentally different. Then strange things like these happene more often. Your dreams transform. Dram power is totally underestimated..

I have had those moments, esp when trading currencies, where I know what is going to happen before it does. There is a feeling of detachment almost like I am not there but watching from afar, and I see the changes coming. When I try to bring my conscious mind to bear on it, that state fades away.
You hit the nail on the head, it's about detachment. In fact, the more you desire it, the more you're pushing it away. The only way to get it is by being happy you're about to get it, by being certain you're about to get it(faith?) and by being non reactive. That means, if you get it or not, you're still cool with it, not just on the outside.. you really must feel it :)


Recently I was walking into a building on campus. There are a set of outer doors, then a small entry way and another set of double doors. While I was approaching the outer doors I could "see" an old girlfriend on the pay phone inside and around the corner. It was very vivid, she had on a white low cut tee shirt, gold necklace, her hair up.... I could not physical see her, and I had not seen her in real life for 10 years, yet when I walked in she was standing there exactly as I had "seen" her moments before.

Really awesome bro.. and really consistent with the ways of the universe.
And with string theory ;)

[Sincerelee]

I have evidence of having a dream 6 months before it came true. Some time around June last year, i dreamed of meeting someone who had an incredible effect on my life.

I posted the dream on here. I forgot about the dream.

Then, I posted a Field Report at the end of the year. AW reminded me about the dream I had posted prior.

This woman did change my life in PUA Do. I am not at liberty to give details, but she helped me see so much, including my need to be a Mode One man.

We are no longer together, but the changes from klnowing her are permanent.

[RAMM]

It's awesome..
At some level we all believe in help from above, whatever form that may take.. :)

And every time we have such experiences, makes our faith stronger, and next time we have even more powerful experiences.. this is my ladder..

[eVan]

Dude Brando, you're only just "surfing" the surface of it. Why do we even need UFO technology when we have our own genius built right into us? The real technology I think we all should be concerned with is the decades of misinformation, lies, and behavioral management we've all been through in school. Yes, our current system of school was first inspired by the Prussians. Powerful American corporate men like Rockefeller funded schools to be the way they are today under a basic management theory created by the Prussians to produce docile minded, asset worthy men and women ready to throw themselves in the corporate machine. We might gain fabulous technology, but I'll guarantee you most of us will be using it to increase the weight of goldylock's sachs (money for the rich).

We are a society conditioned, and programmed on class. It is a class system. It's not a free society we live in. We are shaking in our boots over job loss. We don't even know how to grow a garden, can food, raise animals. Our fingers are strong from typing on key-boards though. We will be helpless lambs if something drastic happens. It'll be the "alphas" of the powers that be that will harness our fear and lead us. UFOs just spin around above us and in other dimensions just watching all this non-sense. They are afraid of us maybe almost as much as we are of them. I guarantee you if they were to land on the lawn of the White House, so to speak, they wouldn't even get there. There'd be a whole military pointing every weapon you could imagine at them.

I just say have fun with all this imagining about UFOs, but be somewhat prepared when you do find out truth. Because it'll turn your world up-side-down. I also have no intention of stirring anything up. I am interested in truth, and educating others about truth for freedom of thought.

Thanks,

eVan

[L.A. Tripp]

Obviously you've done some research. With the knowledge about the schools and the class system, job loss, etc. Keep trucking.

[RAMM]

Great post eVan..
than you probably already know there's at least like 7 different types of engines that work with either water or magnets and which basically produce free energy.. and that the people holding patents over them has died after they refused to sell them to oil companies.. they're all pretty much based on tesla's original inventions..
originally, it was an electric circuit, maybe based on a new type of engine, the one they've been replicating already a few times, which has an energy output bigger than it's input.
there would be so much more to talk about..

see, back in 1890, Testa has light bulbs in his home and laboratory, not connected to the power grid by wires, yet they kept producing light.. he was famous for holding lit light bulbs in his hands, no wires. He used electric fields(generated by his coils?) and everything was connected wirelessly..

and how about Philadelphia experiment? They used large coils on a ship because they thought the electromagnetic field would redirect the light thus shielding the boat.
The ship disappeared and was found thousands of miles away, and most of the people on the ship had "merged" with the steel of the ship itself..

there's so much knowledge out there that is just being blocked by the interests of large economical interests..
Tesla is basically the greatest inventor of all times, yet strangely he's never been given much credit for it.
Back when the first telegraph was created, he was already using a wireless one. He invented alternate current electricity(and the engine that produces it), the one on which all of our cities are running on. He was the first one to harness water streams to produce electricity.
And basically, half of the things he did 100 years ago, still look like science fiction today, simply because the CIA confiscated all his papers and patents and scientists today just don't know how to replicate what he did..

[Sincerelee]

RAMM, I think you mean Tesla.

Yes, he did some cool stuff with electricity. His idea of free electricity would have been nice, had it been practical. Electricity needs do hinder many of us. Just think how cities shut down during major power failures.

At one point, it was predicted that we would all have personal atomic generators in each household, and with it we'd no longer need to rely on public utilities. But, can you imagine the catastrophies waiting to happen?

People are imfamous for neglect. Personal atomic generators would be nice for 5-10 years. Then, as is human nature, some...not all...would neglect the required maintenance and eventually, we'd have meldowns. The technology is there, and you can theoretically build one today, but it's not practical.


eVan, Not all of us are that dependant on society. Growing up in the Midwest, I learned to hunt, grow crops, and survive off nothing but my own ingenuity, all at a young age. Practically everyone from my area knows how to find North by using the sun and our watch.

[Rodehard]

I read a report from Bloom Energy last night. They have a working prototype fuel cell that works using silica, and fuel (even solar power for the fuel) that Google, Apple, and several other big dogs have been testing for over a year. The ones to power a house are the size of a microwave and they have negative carbon foot prints. Google was so impressed by the results they got, they invest $400,000 into Bloom. Dude who invented it is from India. Rumor control has it he got the knowledge from some ancient knowledge from way back in India's day. I guess the whole ET thing there is common knowledge and visits are part of their heritage going back 10,000 years.

As for the Philadelphia experiment, most of that is urban legend. The ship was sold to Spain and was still in use in late 2007. In addition to that there are a vast number of Laws of Physics and Causality, that would have to have been broken, any number of which would result in the end of life as we know it.

When you hear these stories, like Chariots of the Gods, the Triangle, etc. you have to remember mans need to embellish stories. Chariots, and many there sources are fast to tel you Neil Armstrong said he saw a "bogie". That is true. The rest of the story, as I have heard him tell it, and as the NASA tapes prove out, is that the bogie was the 2nd stage of his rocket, exactly where it was supposed to be. He was concerned that debris from the 2nd stage might pose a threat to the capsule.

A personal favorite of mine...Bruce Gernon... claimed to have flown through a cloud that was in reality a time vortex. He has written books, gets paid to do lectures, etc. all to tell his story of how he flew from Andros Island to Miami, (100 miles) in 30 mins, instead of the normal 1.5 hours. He has this long story about it and has milked that story for 30 years.. Like many of these stories people esp. Gernon leave out those pesky details that would demystify their story... like the Andros tower logs, show him leaving an hour earlier than he claims he did.

Still when you point this out to "believers" in alien life having visited us, of which I am one, they make excuses. The tower logs were altered, etc. What makes more sense, someone misread his watch, OR a cloud has the power to make time travel possible.

I am not saying all the storeis are bogus, just remember to be open minded and apply Occams razor and simple logic to what you read. entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity