A collective guide to Enlightenment

[RAMM]

It's called "collective" because I won't gonna write it alone Idon't have all the answers. I'm actually writting this to get answers from all of you.

I'd like for us to threat the subject in a more scientific way.

It's about the specific steps and degrees of enlightenment.

I know of various concepts, and experienced some of them.
There is presence on the one side, and kundalini rising and universal love on the other.

Is there a specific order to achieve them?

I'll try to give some order to it as good as I can.

First there is presence. I think presence doesn't make you either good or bad.
Successfull people are present, yet not all of them are good people.
The Joker has tremendous presence, just like Charles Manson, and other "bad guys", yet they don't feel anything like enlightening.

So I suggest acquiering some presence is the first step towards the goal, but does not guarantee anything morethan success in interacting with environment and people, no matter what your reasons are.

Then there is love. It's when the heart chackra goes all crazy and you feel love for yourself and a lot of other people.

Then kundalini rising. I'm not sure the order is right here. PRobably kundalini comes before universal love.

I know that kundalini heals the body when it rises, and the more you keep it like that the better the results, because it cleanses the chackras.
Is it true in your opinion that lesser active chackras are what stops kundalini from rising?

What is the next step? Developing some paranormal powers? ESP?

[BigJohnson]

Presence can be influenced by your childhood and many factors weighing on your sense of what is right and what is wrong. People like Ted Bundy for example did have tremendous presence and a clear mind, but his upbringing and belief system had him thinking he was doing what he was doing for the better. He thought his actions were a just cause. This is the result of an abnormal mind with a clear perspective. He had the ability to take action with no remorse. He considered things like remorse and guilt insignificant, and overlooked them, and placed no importance on them. Thus they did not effect him.

I've noticed with presence nothing really changes, everything is still the same but you see it differently. You can do what you did before only now you feel better and more relaxed about it. You feel as if boundaries have been removed because they are simply less significant to you.

The path to enlightenment usually hits someone who is deeply unhappy with shit. Someone who is having much trouble and thinks "There is no way I'm here to feel like this. Why be on Earth living if I'm just suffering the whole time? There MUST be something more!" Which is true. This helps put things in perspective for that person and makes it easier to change because they have consciously identified their problem. It seems the people who have it the worst are more likely to attain enlightenment, because having it bad puts you in a mode for change.

Someone who is distracted by a false sense of happiness will one day also feel this deep misery, but it will come much later. Right before death. They will feel undeserving of death, they feel as though they have not yet lived, the death of the ego is terrifying to someone who has lived within it for so long. So, perhaps they will get a glimpse of enlightenment just before death, once previous distractions lose their significance.

So deep realization will eventually happen for everyone. Most forms of society shove man away from this ideal. Don't let all these little distractions and things get the best of you, you have to know that shit is not going to be around forever, you will die one day. Its a fact of life. Embrace every moment for the infinite depth it possesses.

EDIT - As far as ESP and telepathy I see it as a very real possibility in the future. Perhaps it is already among us but it takes a very silent and very keen mind to hone in on it. I have experienced some pretty crazy shit in meditative states, but I still have a lot to learn of its intent and source.

[-TruTh-]

Well.

If I must put a spin on this thing of which I deem to be enlightenment.. it doesn't really come out scientific.

Actually what I would define as enlightenment is complete "Being"... to where you are a person that no mater the circumstance at hand still loves his core value. Much like the teaching of Johnny soporno.. it is fundamentally impossible to attain enlightenment from mind... unless you choose so to do it in the first place.

There is a fundamental and rather staggeringly large list of reasons of why people are really feeling like failures to begin with. A person has to learn to love himself unconditionally and do what he wishses to do before he can attain a title like "Buddhu" as it means the awakened one. I firmly believe that we all possess something in us that is sleeping and that it is are "MISSION" to unlock that and rise to a new level as a person... which is why self improvement seems to be the biggest...reason a attractive person goes anywhere.

When you can go to the deepest part of yourself and ask the questions needed you can easily overcome any hoop in the way thus creating a reality change of persona. Basically ask your "Sleeper" the question of... lets be free.. and he may awaken if it indeed is your belief system.

Everything is a choice.. and to be a great human is no exception to simply choosing to dare to be great in the first place.

Feedback on my thoughts is appreciated as I just wrote everything I was thinking on this subject down. Goodday. :)

[bizzyb1]

Well.

If I must put a spin on this thing of which I deem to be enlightenment.. it doesn't really come out scientific.

Actually what I would define as enlightenment is complete "Being"... to where you are a person that no mater the circumstance at hand still loves his core value. Much like the teaching of Johnny soporno.. it is fundamentally impossible to attain enlightenment from mind... unless you choose so to do it in the first place.

There is a fundamental and rather staggeringly large list of reasons of why people are really feeling like failures to begin with. A person has to learn to love himself unconditionally and do what he wishses to do before he can attain a title like "Buddhu" as it means the awakened one. I firmly believe that we all possess something in us that is sleeping and that it is are "MISSION" to unlock that and rise to a new level as a person... which is why self improvement seems to be the biggest...reason a attractive person goes anywhere.

When you can go to the deepest part of yourself and ask the questions needed you can easily overcome any hoop in the way thus creating a reality change of persona. Basically ask your "Sleeper" the question of... lets be free.. and he may awaken if it indeed is your belief system.

Everything is a choice.. and to be a great human is no exception to simply choosing to dare to be great in the first place.

Feedback on my thoughts is appreciated as I just wrote everything I was thinking on this subject down. Goodday. :)



Yes, indeed this echoes with truth.

Once you begin to try understanding it with mind, you lose it. Words are part of mind. Language is part of mind. To keep being, without the stream of thought and language that is derived from mind, is what we are concerned with, in my case, anyway.

[BigJohnson]

Truth I believe you hit on a very important aspect of the enlightened realization. As always it's a pleasure to hear your insights.

To have love for yourself unconditionally is to trust yourself in letting go of all that makes time relevant to you. As you exist in a place where time has no name, your enjoying yourself, your present. I think as the word love passes from one person to another its true true true meaning is somewhat lost. Love is the ultimate acceptance. It is to stop having the urge to deny or reject. It is to trust. Its allowing your attention to begin inside of you, and letting if focus outward, absorbing, enjoying, feeling, and reacting intuitively with full trust in your self. Where as insecurities are the result of us focusing are attention from another person's mind onto us, a judgmental perspective. Using their preference as a guide to our actions, our limits, our feelings.

I believe as we lose touch with personal trust, we begin to deny and reject what we are capable of saying and doing and experiencing in a given circumstance. So we begin to rely on other things, instead of trusting who we are.

To become enlightened is greatly beneficial to self love, which in turn opens the door to noticing this same unconditional love in every person. No matter how your mind sees a person, they are creatures of love. Knowing this, trusting this, allows you to remain free and comfortable.

Thanks again Truth, you've inspired me. :D

[RAMM]

Presence can be influenced by your childhood and many factors weighing on your sense of what is right and what is wrong. People like Ted Bundy for example did have tremendous presence and a clear mind, but his upbringing and belief system had him thinking he was doing what he was doing for the better. He thought his actions were a just cause. This is the result of an abnormal mind with a clear perspective. He had the ability to take action with no remorse. He considered things like remorse and guilt insignificant, and overlooked them, and placed no importance on them. Thus they did not effect him.
Yeah there are many types of presence, the difference is the psycho killer presence is WAAAAY more fun to live! :D



The path to enlightenment usually hits someone who is deeply unhappy with shit. Someone who is having much trouble and thinks "There is no way I'm here to feel like this. Why be on Earth living if I'm just suffering the whole time? There MUST be something more!" Which is true. This helps put things in perspective for that person and makes it easier to change because they have consciously identified their problem. It seems the people who have it the worst are more likely to attain enlightenment, because having it bad puts you in a mode for change.
Yes, that's what's happening to me.

Someone who is distracted by a false sense of happiness will one day also feel this deep misery, but it will come much later. Right before death. They will feel undeserving of death, they feel as though they have not yet lived, the death of the ego is terrifying to someone who has lived within it for so long. So, perhaps they will get a glimpse of enlightenment just before death, once previous distractions lose their significance.
I don't think that everyone achieves that. I think they are very rare people.
I believe in reincarnation, so I think it takes quite a number of lives before one is able to evolve and free himself.



EDIT - As far as ESP and telepathy I see it as a very real possibility in the future. Perhaps it is already among us but it takes a very silent and very keen mind to hone in on it. I have experienced some pretty crazy shit in meditative states, but I still have a lot to learn of its intent and source.

I had some esp and telepathy episodes myself. Nothing too fancy, but enough for me to trust it.
What do you mean with "possibility in the future"? I believe people done shit A LOT WORSE for thousands of years. The hawaiians, indians and chinese people especially. I heard of a shaman bending trees as he run through the forest.
Then there are yogis and fakirs, what they can do is beyond what words can express.. I won't even try to talk about that on a forum, lest I wanna make me look like a total idiot.

[RAMM]

Well.
If I must put a spin on this thing of which I deem to be enlightenment.. it doesn't really come out scientific.
Yes I know. This is supposed to be a thread about what the various stages of enlightenment are, so that one can keep track of where he's at. I have experienced at least three different things that I could call "enlightenment" so I'd like to understand what other types are possible, in what order(if there is any), etc.

it is fundamentally impossible to attain enlightenment from mind... unless you choose so to do it in the first place.
What do you mean?

When you can go to the deepest part of yourself and ask the questions needed you can easily overcome any hoop in the way thus creating a reality change of persona. Basically ask your "Sleeper" the question of... lets be free.. and he may awaken if it indeed is your belief system.
:)

[RAMM]

To have love for yourself unconditionally is to trust yourself in letting go of all that makes time relevant to you. As you exist in a place where time has no name, your enjoying yourself, your present. I think as the word love passes from one person to another its true true true meaning is somewhat lost. Love is the ultimate acceptance. It is to stop having the urge to deny or reject. It is to trust. Its allowing your attention to begin inside of you, and letting if focus outward, absorbing, enjoying, feeling, and reacting intuitively with full trust in your self. Where as insecurities are the result of us focusing are attention from another person's mind onto us, a judgmental perspective. Using their preference as a guide to our actions, our limits, our feelings.

I believe as we lose touch with personal trust, we begin to deny and reject what we are capable of saying and doing and experiencing in a given circumstance. So we begin to rely on other things, instead of trusting who we are.
I kinda lost it again you know.. the presence that lasted for more than a week. Anyway, I know it's gonna be back. I wanted to say that loving yourself is the same as being enlightened. Remember my posts for a whole week how full of love they were? I felt the butterflies in my stomach for myself. I allowed me to love and accept other too a lot more. To be more giving.
I think that one way to get int opresence really quick and easy is to give people what they need, be generous and not expect anything in return. When things actually start coming back it's gonna make you love yourself more and will push you into presence again(that's what I'm going for :))


To become enlightened is greatly beneficial to self love, which in turn opens the door to noticing this same unconditional love in every person. No matter how your mind sees a person, they are creatures of love. Knowing this, trusting this, allows you to remain free and comfortable.
I think it works the other way around too.. being present brings self love but also, self love makes you more present and enlighened in many ways.

[RAMM]

How do you guys know when you have PRESENCE? Usefull for those who only have it sometimes yet, and ar working to get it.

For me personally a few things change.
*Breathing is deeper and more powerfull. This changes my voice. When I'm not present my voice sounds insecure and makes me look and feel weak. When I'm present it is strong and deep and secure.
*I feel it in my body overall more relaxed, especially in my face. I feel like my face is interacting with the world.. the way my eyes feel and move, the way my mouth and lips is like.. I dunno, expressing inner things in a free way, like a good actor. I feel the inner smile. It can be seen out most of the times, but even when it can't be seen very clearly, I still feel it. When I'm not present my face is cold as death.
*Again in the body.. when I practice kung fu, if I'm present I can defeat people twice my size. When kundalini rose, I was impossible to defeat. When I'm present I feel very grounded and solid like a deeply rooted tree yet at the same time very light on my feet, I could almost fly. I like to practice parkour when I'm present.
*People's reactions to you are better, even the most simple ones. You might not know you are more present than usual, but other people do notice, or even if they don't they still react way better.

[azazels_wolf]

The true gauge (and origin) of presence lies in mental stillness, the silencing of the internal dialogue.

If you wish to increase your presence, silence your mind as long and as often as you can. If you wish to measure your presence, check the activity of your internal dialogue - are you in your head with thoughts busily chattering away? Clear them out and return to the silence between the thoughts.

[BigJohnson]

How do you guys know when you have PRESENCE? Usefull for those who only have it sometimes yet, and ar working to get it.

For me personally a few things change.
*Breathing is deeper and more powerfull. This changes my voice. When I'm not present my voice sounds insecure and makes me look and feel weak. When I'm present it is strong and deep and secure.
*I feel it in my body overall more relaxed, especially in my face. I feel like my face is interacting with the world.. the way my eyes feel and move, the way my mouth and lips is like.. I dunno, expressing inner things in a free way, like a good actor. I feel the inner smile. It can be seen out most of the times, but even when it can't be seen very clearly, I still feel it. When I'm not present my face is cold as death.
*Again in the body.. when I practice kung fu, if I'm present I can defeat people twice my size. When kundalini rose, I was impossible to defeat. When I'm present I feel very grounded and solid like a deeply rooted tree yet at the same time very light on my feet, I could almost fly. I like to practice parkour when I'm present.
*People's reactions to you are better, even the most simple ones. You might not know you are more present than usual, but other people do notice, or even if they don't they still react way better.

Damn these are some good observations.. I understand what you mean without presence my words have a fatigue to them, my enthusiasm does as well. The minds filter adds many subconscious things that plain just make us feel derogatory toward what is.



The true gauge (and origin) of presence lies in mental stillness, the silencing of the internal dialogue.

If you wish to increase your presence, silence your mind as long and as often as you can. If you wish to measure your presence, check the activity of your internal dialogue - are you in your head with thoughts busily chattering away? Clear them out and return to the silence between the thoughts.

Yes, we can see a clear cut distinction between stillness and allowing the shroud of thought to pass over. Its like a switch.

It is interesting to test your mastery by becoming present, dropping it, becoming present. and dropping it again. Then becoming present for a very long period of time.

There is a woman who has very good insights on the matter, her name is Isha Judd her videos are very articulate.

[RAMM]

The true gauge (and origin) of presence lies in mental stillness, the silencing of the internal dialogue.

If you wish to increase your presence, silence your mind as long and as often as you can. If you wish to measure your presence, check the activity of your internal dialogue - are you in your head with thoughts busily chattering away? Clear them out and return to the silence between the thoughts.

Man.. you can't even live without internal dialogue.. I mean, you can't write a POST here without it. You can't even decide to turn on the computer for that matter. You'd just wank around, looking for food water and sex I guess.

I mean, can you even fall in love without thinking about the person and missing her? Methinks not.

My being present is more about being IN THE BODY, feeling the body become like a star who's gravity field is attracting everything in my world. You know when they ilustrate relativity theory with the space-time bending because of a star's gravity? Things kinda slip towards it (I also think I just realized how gravity works.. I mean, the first fucking theory in the world! anyway :D)

[RAMM]

Damn these are some good observations.. I understand what you mean without presence my words have a fatigue to them, my enthusiasm does as well. The minds filter adds many subconscious things that plain just make us feel derogatory toward what is.
:)

There's one more thing I'm doing. You know when the skin on your head moves back and forth? There are some muscles moving your scalp.
When I do the inner smile, my mouth also smiles but it almost cannot be seen, and then those muscles on the head contract very lightly, it's invisible but I feel them, and they connect to the corners of the mouth and go around my head 360degrees. It feels like my whole head is smiling, though one can't really see it. I've anchored this to presence.. I do it often to get more and more into it, it's becoming a reflex.
Also, I makes me feel like there's energy in my head, like when kundalini rises, so it's a feeling that is helping getting it back up my spine.


It is interesting to test your mastery by becoming present, dropping it, becoming present. and dropping it again. Then becoming present for a very long period of time.
I believe tha if you keep deep presenc for long enough your kundalini will inevitably rise.

[BigJohnson]

Man.. you can't even live without internal dialogue.. I mean, you can't write a POST here without it. You can't even decide to turn on the computer for that matter. You'd just wank around, looking for food water and sex I guess.

I mean, can you even fall in love without thinking about the person and missing her? Methinks not.

My being present is more about being IN THE BODY, feeling the body become like a star who's gravity field is attracting everything in my world. You know when they ilustrate relativity theory with the space-time bending because of a star's gravity? Things kinda slip towards it (I also think I just realized how gravity works.. I mean, the first fucking theory in the world! anyway :D)

I believe he means the dialogue of judgment and man-made interpretations. To turn off this dialogue is to feel the world as if you were the world, with no separation.

[BigJohnson]

:)

There's one more thing I'm doing. You know when the skin on your head moves back and forth? There are some muscles moving your scalp.
When I do the inner smile, my mouth also smiles but it almost cannot be seen, and then those muscles on the head contract very lightly, it's invisible but I feel them, and they connect to the corners of the mouth and go around my head 360degrees. It feels like my whole head is smiling, though one can't really see it. I've anchored this to presence.. I do it often to get more and more into it, it's becoming a reflex.
Also, I makes me feel like there's energy in my head, like when kundalini rises, so it's a feeling that is helping getting it back up my spine.

Oh most definitely.. its like, when you laugh uncontrollably for a while the back of you head becomes a bit sore from straining those muscles.. To use those muscles is a true genuine smile reflecting true peace and good times.

I believe tha if you keep deep presenc for long enough your kundalini will inevitably rise.

Indeed, as presence grows in intensity you feel the void become more and more apparent.

[RAMM]

Oh most definitely.. its like, when you laugh uncontrollably for a while the back of you head becomes a bit sore from straining those muscles.. To use those muscles is a true genuine smile reflecting true peace and good times.
Cool, never heard about that :)


Indeed, as presence grows in intensity you feel the void become more and more apparent.
Oh yes.. yes the void.. when every movement in the body starts from the void, and eneds in the void, and even though you try to move a hand the movement doesn't start with the hand.. it starts below the belly button, in the dan tien.. and every movement is connected with every cell in the body, especially the lungs and how air and blood circle. :o


I believe he means the dialogue of judgment and man-made interpretations. To turn off this dialogue is to feel the world as if you were the world, with no separation.
That kind of internal dialogue I don't have at all when I am present. But I do think about people and things.. always in a very positive way.

[RAMM]

And now I want to clarify and define one important concept we're using over and over again - LOVE.
I had no idea of what it was until I felt it. I imagine someone reading this thread might not undersand either.

When we talk about love in this context, it is not aout passion or emotions. That feels very different. Actually when we talk about LOVE we are talking about ACCEPTANCE.

Not only that but all acceptance is actually born from self acceptance.

It's not enough to think you accept yourself. I have had that thought over and over again for many years. I only have ACCEPTED myself for who I really am less than 3 weeks ago.

They say that you can only love some one as much as you love yourself, not more. It is true. The moment I finally accepted myself, allowed myself to be as I am, tha very moment I accepted others. Accepted thus loved others. No more judging. No more denying, criticizing. Just allowing everybody to be who they are, or their ego thinks they are.

For me it is totally true tha enlightenment is not ONE.. it does become one but it's comopiste in it's nature.

I had kundalini rise back in decembre and it did bring presence and everything.

In may or june as I was reading eckhart tolle's book I experienced presence for an extended period of time for the first time in my life. A few days. Than it came on and off, then I totally lost it again.

3 weeks ago as I said, thanks to Soporno's material, the third piece came together inside me - self acceptance.
With it, living became very pleasurable. When you acept yourself thus love yourself and a lot of other people, the first thing that changes is that you become happy instantly.

I went from straight depression to euphoria overnight.

Now since I've already experienced presence it was automatically associated with the love feeling, and now I can't have them separated, only both at the same time, which i didn't have back in june.

When you are unhappy and suffering, your mind's natural reacion is to escape from the present. When you are happy you become present.

That's why you are present while playing a videogame you enjoy. The problem is you lose presence as you turn off you compuer. wtf?

But combine it with self acceptance that is perenneal and you have two things that increase and susain eachother for ever. I only still lose it when I work all day long without having slept the night before, but that's pretty normal.

So my theory can be summed up like this -
1. Learn presence(and about it)
2. Identify and resolve the inner conflict that's not allowing you to fully accept yourself, even if you don't realize it(you don't feel wet if you've been a fish your whole life)
3. Strieve to have both states combined, you still have to push start it every now and then(maybe not in the first days when it's easy, but harder when you get over the initial enthusiasm)
4. Keep presence until kundalini rises. Practicing Cinese martial arts, Qigong, Yoga, Pranayama will almost guarantee you do get these result, or at least get it faster. A lot faster. I had kundalini rise as I practiced with a new Taiji master for like 3 months. Any internal style will hep you. Taiji, Bagua, Xing Yi, Yi quan, Winch Chun, Aikido are the most important onese. In the most complex ones like Taiji it takes a lot longer to uncover the secrets behind technique because your mind has to think of so many movements. With xing yi and wing chun for example, the principles became obvious to me right away(I'm a special case, a kung fu natural so to speak, it takes about 10 years to get kundalini to rise with kung fu normally, so don't think of my timeframe)

In most of the martial arts and also other practices it takes about 6 to 12 years to get consistent results with kundalini rising. I'm counting to get them this same year or soon after.

God, I'm in totally broken.. good night.. and enjoy, I think I'm gonna write a complete, fully edited guide to enlightenment on PDF as soon as I get to that stage once more :)
I'm gonna use all the knowledge from you guys too... jusfilter it through my mind, I think I have this skill about sumarizing things better. The final product is gonna have to give a person all the knowledge I took from a hundred teachers over many years, all in a day!

[azazels_wolf]

In most of the martial arts and also other practices it takes about 6 to 12 years to get consistent results with kundalini rising. I'm counting to get them this same year or soon after.


This is why tantra / sexual alchemy is such a great shortcut, the "lightning path" to enlightenment - kundalini ascension can be achieved very quickly with it. Weeks, months... definitely less than a year if the proper knowledge and discipline are there.

[RAMM]

Thus the best fighting stile is Kung Fuck! :D