The Juggler method

[DVD]

I was wondering on what you guys think of the Juggler method. If you guys actually find it useful or if I'm just charting on enemy territory over here.

[Dynamism]

I've read his book and I'll try to be totally objective.

He teaches great communication skills and he's naturally witty.

However on some aspects, he handles girls like they are the prize. In his book on some pages he seems like a total AFC. He's good enough at recovery though, and his method works for him and for others. I just do not agree with all of it.

[Enigma]

Well,

I have read a lot from Juggler, including his books, his collected posts and a very detailed bootcamp review.

I field tested his method and my conclusion is: it doesn't work.

If you want to do an experiment, go to the Juggler site, podcast section and listen to the podcast where he and Jonny Savior do live approaches.

They use various openers there, and I tried them, but got totally different results. It's funny but in the podcast the girls seem to have no bitchshield at all. Well, guess what, in my field they mostly have.

For example this is a typical approach:

Me: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Me: (switch gears to opinion opener and MM) Hey, may I ask you a female opinion?

The set opens and I take it from there.

Try it, field test it, and report back. I'm curious to see if you can make it work. Try just the openers in the podcast.

Btw, I managed to work Juggler successfully in one 2-set, but the girls there had absolutely no bitchshield and where very nice and open to conversation, but that's the exception and not the rule.

[Enigma]

Btw, I think Juggler can work great if you are in C, as a conversation method. But I have yet to see it work in A1-A3.

[DVD]

Heres the thing I've field tested it and I notice it doesn't work that well in clubs but in day game and street approaches or at the mall it works like a charm. Im just wondering if MM is just as good in day game because I think it might be a liitle too much but I have yet to try it in day game.

[blade18rivers]

It doesn't work for you because you guys don't understand it. Have you been to any charmschool bootcamp yet? I guess not. Yeah sure you've read some of his products and posts, but it seems you haven't absorb the essense of the materials.

If you been around the community long enough, by now you know that its not about the method that you use or the routines or the techniques. Its bout your vibe, your inner game, your value. So whatever you use if you have all these things I've mentioned in check, will work!

Juggler Method doesn't promote routines. So if you'll go out there and use the same verbatim they used in the podcast, it might not work well for you. What they teach are principles and structures.

Observe naturals. Do they use routines to get laid? Hell no! Then there you go. If you use Juggler method as a routine, then it will not work for you. That's exactly what Juggler Method doesn't teach!

I've been to one of their bootcamps in Dubai with Harry. and I was just stunned with what I saw. Bro, if you can sarge an Arab woman covered with abaya and bukra in Arabia without getting jailed, then you can sarge women anywhere!

Juggler Method works. Actually, when you learn Juggler Method, its not really "Juggler's Method" you'll be using. They'll teach you how to make "Your own Method".

[Mild_Seven]

I've been to one of their bootcamps in Dubai with Harry. and I was just stunned with what I saw. Bro, if you can sarge an Arab woman covered with abaya and bukra in Arabia without getting jailed, then you can sarge women anywhere!

Well, I've TALKED TO plenty of covered Arab women in the Middle East without issue. The question is: Did Harry FUCK that girl, or just talk to her? I somehow doubt there was a lot of kino escalation going on there, and if not then I wouldn't even call it a sarge.

I don't know, I've read Juggler's ebook and some of his posts and I think it's useful at certain points in the game (ie. comfort) and with certain kinds of girls. I agree that that kind of game does not work on women with high shields, during the approach and attraction stages. The clips I've seen of Juggler all involve him approaching somewhat attractive nice girls, the kind of girls I can game with my game TURNED OFF. Hey, nice necklace. Your drink looks good. Yum. Let's dance. WEEEEE. Let's sit down. You're a good kisser. Hey, that was even better. Let's go watch a dvd. Bam.

I don't need Juggler to help me fuck 6.5s. But again, I think his conversational strategies are useful for comfort building if you want to try them, so that's not to say it's a useless method.

[Dynamism]

Right, it isn't useless at all. I've learned a lot from it. It works for some people and on some girls. It's not nearly as consistent as it should be though...

For example his phone game example - it's what a typical conversation sounds like... Hi, etc etc. lalala. I don't even say hi on the phone or any of that shit. A valuable lesson is just be as different and exciting as you can. Juggler doesn't teach that extreme.

[Enigma]

It doesn't work for you because you guys don't understand it. Have you been to any charmschool bootcamp yet? I guess not. Yeah sure you've read some of his products and posts, but it seems you haven't absorb the essense of the materials.

If you been around the community long enough, by now you know that its not about the method that you use or the routines or the techniques. Its bout your vibe, your inner game, your value. So whatever you use if you have all these things I've mentioned in check, will work!


Listen to the podcast I mentioned where he approaches girls. His vibe is nothing special, he just walks over to the girl and says "So what was interesting in your day?". I tried the exact same line, without results. You say I need to take a BC, so why don't I need to take a BC to make opinion openers work? Hey we are just talking about the openers here.

I mean, the simple fact that Juggler doesn't even talk about the concept of a bitch shield does tell a lot. I think most of the guys in the community agree that there actually exists something called a bitch shield and that we need strategies to overcome that. Why does Juggler simply ignore this? Maybe because his method is faulty?

I think his method will make you a good conversationalist, and this is a good skill to learn. But sorry, you need more to attract a girl.

Enigma

[wanderer]

I find certain parts of it useful. I do not think by itself its enough to get consistent results during nightgame at clubs or other high energy venues. The main obstacle being the bitch shields. His openers suck but he openly admits it since its his belief that openers are not important.

I think its a great resource for conversation skills and love the open ended questions as well as the vacuum. Learning these 2 skills alone is worth the money for the e-book. They've both produced solid results in the field.

Almost forgot to give credit his explanation of SOI's. Also very helpful and useful. When you use them to reward properly you can just feel the attraction hit after you drop the SOI. But drop the SOI before she earned it and the opposite happens. Its awkward and kills all the good tension that was building. This is probably the trickiest part for me when I was trying to practice his method.

[TruePlayer]

I don't think Juggler is a good starting point for newbies.

Despite it's appearances, Juggler is actually an advanced system. You need to have quite a bit of confidence and be quick on your feet to use it. Indeed, much of Juggler's e-book seemed to me to be him showing off how quick witted he was as opposed to him trying to relate to and help newbies (note: I am saying mostly, there is definitely some great newbie advice in the book: at least near the beginning).

Juggler was never an AFC so can't really relate to those who were or still are.

I would say DavidD/Swingcatt/VA for beginners. Then work Juggler into your game as you become more confident, quick witted, and able to handle things on the fly. But before that "scripts" and algorithms are a better way to get started. (Depending on your ethics and disposition you may want to use these forever, or you may simply consider them "training wheels" and drop them later.)

[Enigma]

I don't think Juggler is a good starting point for newbies.

Despite it's appearances, Juggler is actually an advanced system. You need to have quite a bit of confidence and be quick on your feet to use it.


Hmmm, did you actually field test Juggler? Also I don't deny that Juggler can be great in comfort, but how do you get past the bitch shield?

Juggler was never an AFC so can't really relate to those who were or still are.


AFAIK this is not true. He was an AFC.

Enigma

[wanderer]

I don't think Juggler is a good starting point for newbies.


Juggler was never an AFC so can't really relate to those who were or still are.



If you believe he is honest in his ebook, this is not true. He is a self admitted former AFC. The following is directly from his ebook:


"I sought the life of a ladies man. I pictured myself making
love to many women. I would wear silk robes and smoke a pipe.
But after visiting the pick-up joints around town I realized that on
a scale of 1 to 10 I was starting at negative one million.
Attractive women rattled me, I was afraid of talking to strangers
and my overly sensitive ego was a constant drag. I had no
'game' to keep up with my imagination. I couldn’t even score
with trashy girls or even the girls trashy girls considered trashy. I
played the game so badly that just being seen with me could ruin
a guy’s chances. I was dubbed the Destroyer."

[666]

Swinggcat & David D for beginners? They are the ultimate experts of inner game (they all are friends and learn from each other). The former is quite an NLP seducer too, according to mister Intense/Twotimer.

Both got superb belief system and mindset programmes. F*cking ace.

Double Your Dating (DDA's first programme) though is totally for beginners, I agree.

[DVD]

K let me go more in deph with these interactions. I was in Petsmart today and of course as usual I get AA but just have to barel through so I go caveman. I say hey I'm actually new to this area are there any malls in around here. Of course she's going to know. So usually I wait for her reaction and response and then go from there. And actually I am new to the area because I'm in the military and tend to travel alot. She asked me where I was from and I said California. i asked her how she likes living in the South her answer its OK. Then I go into the I perspective of how I have been stationed here for about a year and it was such a culture shock for me. Then I jump into her favorite subject herself. Went cocky/funny and said what would your b/f think about u hitting on me. She laughs. Then I say you have a warm smile, she smiles then I say thats sexy. At that moment I could feel the convo shift from good to great. I say hey I'm actually going to go shoe shopping it would be great if you could point out whats in and whats not. She smiles. I say is there any way we could continue this conversation (Alla Style) she said yes so I was waiting for her to give me her number but I guess she didn't get the hint so a moment of akward silence so I just say f---k it in my head what your number. Then she gives it to me. She asks me if I'm a playa and I tell her no I just haven't found my soulmate yet and I could see her body language and eyes perk up. She asks me when I'm going to call her and I tell her on Saturday we could go to the mall. But mind you I don't plan on calling her because I already have g/f and I got other things going on in my life. But basically thats it in a nutshell. I just off of there vibe and respond to there reactions of course LISTEN.

[jimmy swagger]

The juggler method is misunderstood. The juggler method is for A) people who have an understanding ot the logic behind MM routines and B) people who have sarging experience and understand various pua situations. To use Enigma flaewd Ex.
For example this is a typical approach:

Me: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Me: (switch gears to opinion opener and MM) Hey, may I ask you a female opinion?

Juggler would never do that, he would do this:

Juggler: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Juggler: You know it's rud not to ask me how my day was.
HB. Fine, how was you day
Juggler: DHV story from your interesting life. (You are in)

Juggler's 90-10 rule can deal with most bitch shield. Most Bitch shield are a test to see if you are different or intresting.

The Juggler Method assumes that you are interesting.
The MM give you interesting routines.

[Enigma]

Juggler would never do that, he would do this:

Juggler: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Juggler: You know it's rud not to ask me how my day was.
HB. Fine, how was you day
Juggler: DHV story from your interesting life. (You are in)

Juggler's 90-10 rule can deal with most bitch shield. Most Bitch shield are a test to see if you are different or intresting.



Ok, I will go out and field test this again. I remember Juggler writing about this "it's rude not to..." line. I will try it.

About the DHV story, are you aware that this is MM? Juggler doesn't do DHV stories, at least not in Mystery's sense.

Regarding 90-10 rule, Juggler no longer preaches this. His stance now is that the interaction should be 50-50 with both parts contributing equally.

[blade18rivers]

Again, its not about the lines or the routines. Its about the vibe, body language, tonality, kino and many other stuff...

If you go out there field testing the things that Juggler said in verbatim as a line in a routine, it will not work. That's not how Juggler Method works.

90-10 rule is indeed come from Juggler method and I still see its uses. And its also true that now they teach 50-50 rule by making the target be compelled to contribute in the interaction right from the beginning. How do they do this? By shooting open ended statements (I didn't say open ended questions although open ended questions has its uses too).

Juggler Method the e-book and the podcasts are for people who have prior knowledge of the community and the materials within the community.

Juggler Method the bootcamps are for guys of any level for they target each person's sticking point. Even beginners can benefit from this. Watch "Seduction School."

Juggler Method does not specifically teaches DHV stories but doesn't discourage it as well. What Juggler Method teach is to tell stories that makes the PUA connect with the target's emotions and sexuality. In Mystery Method, the contents of the story matters a lot for it should contain sub-communications of higher value, which in my opinion is really good. In Juggler Method, the contents of the story doesn't really matter. What matters is how you deliver the story in a way that the target would feel emotionally connected with the PUA. When that is achieved, escalate by making the conversation sexual thus building sexual tension.

How does Juggler Method deal with shit tests and bitch shield? Same is true with all other methods be it Speed Seduction, Real Social Dynamics, Mystery Method etc. Maintain a strong frame and just plow through it as if the PUA is not a bit affected. How do you plow through it? Well, first thing is first, women put up bitch shields because there are so many AFC guys out there who might want to try to hit on her and so she needs to disqualify them as fast as possible. But women with bitch shields does not put up their bitch shield with people she knows. Therefore she only put up her bitch shield to disqualify AFC strangers. So, what Juggler Method teach is to make the target feel as though the PUA was never a stranger by making an emotional connection right from the start.

Juggler Method is indeed misunderstood especially by people who worship the routine based M3 model too much.

Well, I have nothing against Mystery's M3 model and his routines, I really think they're great especially if you're just starting out. But if you want to elevate to the next level ---> "Natural Game", then Juggler Method is for you.

[Enigma]

Well, I have nothing against Mystery's M3 model and his routines, I really think they're great especially if you're just starting out. But if you want to elevate to the next level ---> "Natural Game", then Juggler Method is for you.

Do you successfully use Juggler in the field?

[jimmy swagger]

Wow that sucks about the 90-10 rule because it does stop most bitch shields. When a target looks at you and says who are you. That is a test. I bet she is using the vacum on you too? The 90-10 rule give her to warm up to you and impress her. (The vacum is deadly)

As for Juggler not doing DHV that is not true. Another name for DHV is an interesting or fun story. People confuse MM and JM mostly because of semantics.

Juggler would never do that, he would do this:

Juggler: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Juggler: You know it's rude not to ask me how my day was.
HB. Fine, how was you day
Juggler: DHV story from your interesting life. (You are in)

In this small example you have a slight neg(You know it's rude not to ask me how my day was) and a DHV (Juggler: DHV story from your interesting life. (You are in))

IMO the main difference btwn the two is that with MM you have preset routines that are field tested and are good to go (Jealous GF, girls fighting,
elvis)and with JM you come up with your own routines from your fun life. Natural does not mean no structure, it means not using someone's else routines. Even the best naturals have a gameplan of what they are going to say.

[blade18rivers]

Do you successfully use Juggler in the field?

Not placing MM and SS aside, in fact they work very well with JM. That's what I like about it.

As for field testing the Juggler Method; I've seen it work well in the field when it was demonstrated by instructors particularly Harry and so many good reviews from my personal friends who attended the boot camp done by Troy. And yes, I've used the Juggler method successfully three out of four so far. One day game and two night game. Maybe the fourth close shall come soon, its only a matter of time.

As for Juggler Method teaching AFC's. Well, one of my friend who attended the bootcamp with Harry has never approached any woman more so never closed any HB in his 25years of his life. The night we did the bootcamp, upon seeing Harry approach, hook, kino, and number close (too bad logistics couldn't allow him to f-close) that Arab girl full of bitch shield wearing black abaya (the abaya is a bitch shield in itself!) he approached 5set mixed set with 2 guys, hook, kino, number closed the target and set-up a day two the next few days. I heard he f-closed the girl after a week! I think they're still seeing each other til now. Not bad for a total virgin eh?

And no, they did not pay me to promote the Juggler Method. What I'm just saying is that, it works. If you just understand it well...

Many concepts in Juggler Method seems to contradict stuff from the Mystery Method but that doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. Problem with beginners is that they take a certain method and they believe its the gospel of truth to which one must strictly adhere. Many newbie guys treat Mystery's M3 model as such. When they see some other methods that doesn't seem to fit the M3 model, they automatically assume that they are erroneous or faulty coz it doesn't seem to fit the "M3 gospel". In my opinion that's total bullocks.

Again, I have nothing against the M3 model. I really believe its great. In fact, I myself started with it. Style himself said that these "routines" are only guideline like a training wheel. So that when the time comes, you can take them away and be able to ride on your own. That's exactly what Juggler Method teach, be able to ride without the training wheels. Right now, I'm deviating from "routine based game" and Juggler Method works wonders.

[666]

Blend the styles together. Keep the guidelines as mindmaps.

Whatever works for one guy may not necessarily work for another. It's all down to your personality although it never hurts to try and fail a number of times.

[sting]

this is something i posted awhile back on JM and MM


"i've been doing day game exclusively for months now - and in the past have fooled around with full-rapport in bars. and classic MM, of course - who here hasn't done that one?


FROM MY EXPERIENCE - in day game, JM style stuff is cool. the key is being "normal" ("boring" isn't a very good choice of word, IMO) and low pressure about the whole deal. tell a little story (nothing thats going to get busted stomach muscles of laughter), relate it to her, relate stuff back to your experience, SOI/qualify etc.
NORMAL - thats the key. there's a lot of power in going in chilled relax.
This isn't to say that MM is abnormal - but it oftentimes gets performed from an "entertainment monkey" frame by students, which feels abnormal to them. takes time to get these things down to a tight, inner place.

in night game -
a) full-rapport works, but... there's the odd bitch shield there, and there are wittier, more "fun" guys there - which for me anyway, hurt my frame enough to blow out. Perhaps a guy with more experience like Juggler can just roll with it.
part of the problem here is being too "boring" on an outer game level and part of it is losing the frame on an inner game level.
all in all, working full rapport in clubs will get you girls, if thats more in keeping with your personality. there are SPECIFIC cases where the Juggler frame is harder to hold onto than the MM frame, especially early on.
Never heard Juggler or his lot talk about bitch shields. I do NOT believe that they never get one ever - and i'd like to hear from them how they deal with it.
Similarly, Mystery and his lot often do NOT get a bitch shield and then they cut down on the active disinterest, IOD's - and can be more straight about the deal. I have no doubt of this whatsoever.

b) MM style stuff is better for dealing with bitch shields and the first few minutes. having a couple of interesting things to say up front is a good way of hooking, and then you can do whatever you like.
call it JM, MM - its just talking and listening. and kino
I think a lot of us have been through the phase where you can get attraction, laughs and a feeling of power in your sarges because of it - BUT NOT BE ABLE TO CLOSE. its important not to lose sight of the goal. the people praising MM to the detriment of JM, please keep this in mind - its not about having a powerful feeling in socializing, are you getting laid out of it?


In a nutshell - there's value in Juggler
it goes without saying that there is value in MM

... and i would suggest anyone who wants to see it for themselves make a day of it at the mall or club. no other way of convincing anyone of anything."

[sting]

to add on a bit -

there isn't much difference between the two on an in-field level.
once the set has committed to interacting with you - its simply a question doing what you do.

- main difference on a model level is -
going in full rapport vs going in neutral

- the essence of the two are the same, IMO
do most of the talking to start with - this eases the social burden on your set and puts them at ease. making conversation with strangers is a burden - your smoothly handling it via 90-10 rule (using either style) is the DHV that gets you in. Thats how I see it.


Furthermore, I have noticed that 'vibe' is often enough to get you in, without the material you needed before to do the job. hence, no need to Active Disinterest (not getting along with target).. Normal Social Interest (how you'd treat anyone else) is fine.


Still, its a tightrope of Engaging the girl, but Not validating her outright with full-rapport model. Flirting, teasing etc. within the framework of full rapport helps but IMO, the neutral rapport model is more consistent for this.

hope thats helpful,
S.

ps - you can find the thread of a similar topic here -
http://www.venusianarts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=523

[Enigma]

One of the things I miss the most in Juggler is the lacking structure. MM has a clearly defined structure of how a sarge progresses(A-C-S). Once you know this structure it is easier for you to know where you are and what step is next.

In JM you have none of these. Basically Juggler teaches conversational skills. These might still be useful, but I wouldn't consider it a good dating system, it is more like a tool.

Of course a JM instructor with tons of field experience will make it work. Although I suspect that he will be following a MM-like structure, even if he is not aware of it. It's not because he is a secret fan of MM, but I consider MM to be a correct model of male-female interactions, gathered through tons of in-field experience.

There is also the marketing aspect of it. Juggler sells his method as a way to make genuine connections with people. He doesn't want to be seen as another MM clone, even if under the hoods the interactions follow the MM pattern.

Ok, now that I read my own posting I'm not so sure if I'm doing justice to the JM.

Juggler talks about SOI, this is similar to A3 in mystery, but you still have to know the right time to do it.
Then there are the sexual barriers, another Juggler technique, which make you a challenge.

So again, there is useful stuff in Juggler, but I still would like more structure and how to deal with contingencies(like bitch shields).

Enigma

[Parnelli]

for fun, after realizing a community of girl-chasers existed, i read a few posts of whoever i could divine was "famous", and Juggler was one of them.

it was so negative, maniuplative, and not just borderline misogynistic, that it really put me off, and that was the only thing of jugglers that i have ever read.

however, what you guys are describing sounds kind of interesting. maybe i'll take another look.

[wanderer]

After partaking in this thread I decided to re-read most juggler's ebook. Its short. And the differences with MM become apparent once you re-read it.

Anyway, someone asked how juggler deals with bitch shields so here's his explanation:

"Surprisingly, a hot-women acting badly creates a golden
opportunity to show some genuine interest. The secret to dealing
with girls who are behaving badly is to act SWEET but also
TOUGH at the same time. Show interest but in the next breath
destroy her behavior. Mix in the sugar with the medicine. That is
a great way to show her you are being a sincere man. She can't
possibly imagine you are sucking up if you are also acting tough.
Just because she is hot doesn’t mean she can act like a
juvenile. Have higher expectations."

You: "Hi, what's your name?"
Her: "Does it matter?"
You: "I like you. You have a fun vibe. But you're right. It
doesn't matter... if you're going to act like a jerk."

[Enigma]

Ok, I will go out and field test this again. I remember Juggler writing about this "it's rude not to..." line. I will try it.



Ok, as I said, I field tested it, and... it worked. Here it is:

I approach a 3-set. Two of the girls are talking to each other while the 3rd is standing a bit to the side, quietly.

Me: Hi, whats your name?
HB: I'm here with my friends.
Me: Hey, funny name, "I'm here with my friends". My name is Enigma.
[silence]
Me: You know, I think it is rude not to introduce yourself.
HB: My name is HB.
Me: So what do you do for a living? I work with computers.
HB: I'm a doctor.
Me: A doctor? That's interesting...

Ok, the interaction goes on from there, but I couldn't hold it for long, it just didn't feel right. I'm not blaming JM for this, I just didn't have the skills. I should have asked a better, open-ended question.

But, the opener worked.

I'm not going to add more to this thread, since I think it would be more appropriate to do this in the Juggler forum.

Personally I still think that JM ISN'T a good dating system, although it has valuable information and insights that can be put to good use.

I also think that someone with lots of field experience can use JM effectively. But I don't think it is a good system for newbies to start with. I may be wrong here.

I plan to focus more on MM from now on, but I will still try to embed JM into my sarges where possible. So I'm keeping an open mind and will try to field test as much as possible.

Peace, Enigma.

[Greystoke]

If you really really really want to learn the juggler method, go to his forum

http://forum.charismaarts.com/viewtopic.php?id=2074


and buy his ebook. Such like the MM, JM has evolved in recent years as more and more people are using it and more instructors are teaching it.

I am not affiliated with charismaarts although I find their material very good and complementary to MM.

[blade18rivers]

Ok, as I said, I field tested it, and... it worked. Here it is:

I approach a 3-set. Two of the girls are talking to each other while the 3rd is standing a bit to the side, quietly.

Me: Hi, whats your name?
HB: I'm here with my friends.
Me: Hey, funny name, "I'm here with my friends". My name is Enigma.
[silence]
Me: You know, I think it is rude not to introduce yourself.
HB: My name is HB.
Me: So what do you do for a living? I work with computers.
HB: I'm a doctor.
Me: A doctor? That's interesting...

Ok, the interaction goes on from there, but I couldn't hold it for long, it just didn't feel right. I'm not blaming JM for this, I just didn't have the skills. I should have asked a better, open-ended question.

But, the opener worked.

I'm not going to add more to this thread, since I think it would be more appropriate to do this in the Juggler forum.

Personally I still think that JM ISN'T a good dating system, although it has valuable information and insights that can be put to good use.

I also think that someone with lots of field experience can use JM effectively. But I don't think it is a good system for newbies to start with. I may be wrong here.

I plan to focus more on MM from now on, but I will still try to embed JM into my sarges where possible. So I'm keeping an open mind and will try to field test as much as possible.

Peace, Enigma.

Just basing on the field report you've mentioned above; In this scenario, you have violated some very important JM guidelines during a sarge. Here's what I've noticed and some pointers:

1. Asking questions is like spending money. If you spend your money unwisely, sooner you'll ran out of spending power and you go broke. If you keep asking the wrong questions, sooner the interaction shall go stale. So, like money, you should ask questions that will give you the best return of your investments. Remember, the more a girl invest in an interaction, the harder for her to pull out of it.
2. What are wrong questions? Closed ended questions. What are closed ended questions? Questions that can be answered with one word, or a "yes" or "no" answer.

Such as,
PUA:"So what do you do for a living? I work with computers."
HB: I'm a doctor.
PUA: A doctor? That's interesting... (Conversation goes stale)

3. How will you compell the HB to invest in the conversation?
3.1 By stating open ended statements for her to relate to. For example: "Hey, I like this place. I feel good everytime I come here" its much easier for her to relate to this statement rather than some closed ended statements like "I work with computers."

3.2 By shooting the "vacuum". What is the vacuum? Vacuums are questions that shall compell the HB to answer. How do you do it? Ask an open ended question, shut up and give her an expecting look. For example, instead of asking:
PUA: "Do you enjoy being a doctor?"
HB: "Yes" (Conversation goes stale...)

You'd rather ask this way...

PUA: What's so interesting about your job? (Shut up, and give her an expecting look. Don't say a word until she answers).

3.3 Make an emotional connection. How will you make an emotional connection? By telling how the story "feels" rather than telling the information of the story. Its easier to relate to feelings rather than information. If the information has no commonality with the HB, she can't relate with it. But when you tell how things "feel" she can relate with the feeling.

4. Do not use the Juggler Method as a routine because its not suppose to be a routine. If you'll use it as a routine, it won't work because it again violates another important guideline of JM, and that is, to be natural.

5. There are many more pointers that I can share here, but better go to charisma arts instead.

Enjoy!

Blade Rivers

[Navy236]

Juggler: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Juggler: You know it's rude not to ask me how my day was.
HB. Fine, how was you day
Juggler: DHV story from your interesting life. (You are in)

In this small example you have a slight neg(You know it's rude not to ask me how my day was) and a DHV (Juggler: DHV story from your interesting life. (You are in))

IMO the main difference btwn the two is that with MM you have preset routines that are field tested and are good to go (Jealous GF, girls fighting,
elvis)and with JM you come up with your own routines from your fun life. Natural does not mean no structure, it means not using someone's else routines. Even the best naturals have a gameplan of what they are going to say.

That's predatory, because he's calling her rude when he's the one who approached her. Women who understand this will do this instead:

Juggler: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Juggler: You know it's rude not to ask me how my day was.
HB: If I'm rude, stop bothering me.

She might even raise her voice to get others involved.

The DHV story is just hype. If she's into whatever value he has, she's using him.

To her, he can easily come off as another creep trying to pick her up and getting rude if he doesn't succeed.

[blade18rivers]

That's predatory, because he's calling her rude when he's the one who approached her. Women who understand this will do this instead:

Juggler: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Juggler: You know it's rude not to ask me how my day was.
HB: If I'm rude, stop bothering me.

She might even raise her voice to get others involved.

The DHV story is just hype. If she's into whatever value he has, she's using him.

To her, he can easily come off as another creep trying to pick her up and getting rude if he doesn't succeed.


Again, Juggler Method is not routine based. If you use Juggler's lines as verbatim routines, it will not work. People who grew up in PU with Mystery's M3 model (like me) find it hard to understand this because the M3 model is very much routine based. I found it hard to understand these principles as well until I saw the bootcamp.

Here's my say on Juggler Method for us people who are studying Mystery's Venusian Arts: It works if you understand how the principles work. Understand the underlying principles and not just the routines.

[Tantric]

That's predatory, because he's calling her rude when he's the one who approached her. Women who understand this will do this instead:

Juggler: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Juggler: You know it's rude not to ask me how my day was.
HB: If I'm rude, stop bothering me.

She might even raise her voice to get others involved.



She might but like with most things we are communicating less with words than expression, tone, and body language. If those elements are saying "Hey, I'm a fun, confident guy and your shield doesn't worry me in the least" then she's unlikely to raise her voice. She'll probably start to realize that this guy is different.

Now lets' say she does react with what you said, but her own body language was open, smiling, interested. In this case you have a keeper and ITS ON!

Look, these little socially contrived interactions we undertake all have a risk of NOT WORKING sometimes. It ain't the method that's wrong. It could be you have spinach in your teeth, her dad just got cancer, she's a substance abuser, whatever.

Walking up to a girl in a dance club and saying "what's interesting in your day?" is maybe low percentage all else being equal. Sort of like using the jealous girlfriend opener while your in line at the bakery. Context of conversations is important and while you could possibly pull in either situation it aint the method. It's because girls are fundamentally easy if you don't fuck things up with needy body language or tone. Hell, if you come across as solid and confident, you can even LEAN IN to a woman in a bar!!! IMAGINE THAT!

Rules are made to be broken once you understand the principles.

[Rick Shambles]

For example this is a typical approach:

Me: So, how was your day? (Juggler style, open ended question)
HB: Fine.(and turns her head the other way, totally disinterested)
Me: (switch gears to opinion opener and MM) Hey, may I ask you a female opinion?



It doesn't work because you're subcommunicating neediness.

This approach works just fine as long as you don't give her the vibe that you're reaction-seeking (which you are).

The reason opinion openers work so well is because they give you a REASON to be talking to her, which gives you a bit of leeway.

When you do something like ask for directions, she's going to talk to you because you have a REASON to talk to her--but it's very difficult to transition into a personal conversation from that without conveying too much interest (read: neediness) from that opener.

Opinion openers offer easy transitions into having a normal, personal exchange of words. It is, after all, an opinion you're asking for.

"hey how's it going" works fine as long as you have really non-needy subcommunications.

Work on your body language and tonality and you'll get it.


shambles

[Navy236]

I've read his book and I'll try to be totally objective.

He teaches great communication skills and he's naturally witty.

However on some aspects, he handles girls like they are the prize. In his book on some pages he seems like a total AFC. He's good enough at recovery though, and his method works for him and for others. I just do not agree with all of it.

I suspect Juggler acts AFC the way one defers to their boss before doing what they want anyway.

His method seems to be based on exploiting the attractive female emotion-junkie's need for interaction and excitement.

I am curious: how does his wife expect to stop time, or alternatively, how does he expect to still be turned on by her if he doesn't divorce her once her looks are gone?

I don't think it's possible for a true PUA to ever stay married more than 15 years for that reason.

[Navy236]

She might but like with most things we are communicating less with words than expression, tone, and body language. If those elements are saying "Hey, I'm a fun, confident guy and your shield doesn't worry me in the least" then she's unlikely to raise her voice. She'll probably start to realize that this guy is different.

Different than the last 300 guys who read The Game and tried the same shit on her? She raises her voice to turn those around you against the guy. She always has the advantage of the "jury" in her favor, no matter how alpha the guy thinks he is. Guys who call themselves "fun, confident" are like average chicks who call themselves "sexy." Isn't it up to the target to decide this?


Now lets' say she does react with what you said, but her own body language was open, smiling, interested. In this case you have a keeper and ITS ON!

Is it on for the next six guys who try the same shit after reading The Game or watching VH-1? Does she get on the pool table until every last PUA has had his turn because they are all "fun, confident?" If she can't stop a PUA, neither can you stop the new PUAs who copy your success until the Red Queen is done.

Any claim that you are fundamentally more desirable than other men is an AFC claim to getting the girl, not a PUA claim.


Look, these little socially contrived interactions we undertake all have a risk of NOT WORKING sometimes. It ain't the method that's wrong. It could be you have spinach in your teeth, her dad just got cancer, she's a substance abuser, whatever.

It's never the method, oh no. It's only the method when it works!!

You could rob a bank and score $25,000 from the vault thinking you did well until you found out there was another $3 mil in a hole in the wall of the vault that you could have had instead if you weren't so married to your "method" of bank robbery (or PUA or whatever).


Walking up to a girl in a dance club

A club where she hasn't paid a cover charge and you likely have, where she might be PAID to hang out, and where you're $30 and four hours in the hole just to get your chance to walk up. You're beginning the at-bat with an expensive 0-2 count.


and saying "what's interesting in your day?" is maybe low percentage all else being equal. Sort of like using the jealous girlfriend opener while your in line at the bakery. Context of conversations is important and while you could possibly pull in either situation it aint the method. It's because girls are fundamentally easy if you don't fuck things up with needy body language or tone.

Women are only fundamentally easy if you are fundamentally desirable.


Hell, if you come across as solid and confident, you can even LEAN IN to a woman in a bar!!! IMAGINE THAT!

Other guys can do it to. Imagine THAT! If she can't stop you, neither she nor you can stop the other guys.


Rules are made to be broken once you understand the principles.

My original point was that this particular interaction had the PUA insulting the target as part of the pickup, something that happens a lot, especially if she's putting up a shield. That boils down to the PUA soliciting the target and getting mad when she doesn't comply with his agenda. Same thing happens when they call names after crashing and burning.

[Navy236]

I was wondering on what you guys think of the Juggler method. If you guys actually find it useful or if I'm just charting on enemy territory over here.

Juggler, like MM/VA, DYD, Gunwitch, Ross, Hypnotica, and now Mehow and a few other gurus, all had a key advantage during the critical development period of the community in that they were able to advertise on websites that their competitors were not. The elimination of over 95 percent of their competition from being able to run competing advertising was what made them successful. The advantage spilled over to message boards, where discussions of their products were deemed on-topic, while discussions of their competitors were deemed SPAM. Anyone can "succeed" with that type of unfair advantage.

The question is, how well is the customer served by the lack of competition? Higher prices, less available theory to choose from, and, because of censorship, not knowing what you aren't hearing or even knowing that the competition has been excluded.

Once that critical hurdle is cleared, and they get famous, they get money and status and that itself helps with women, game, and "life." Social proof kicks in, and they're off to the races, even if they had an unfair head start.

Where the weakness of the anticompetitive behavior will become apparent is when the existing theory no longer works so well and people need new ideas. Money has gone into a select few hands in a way that rewards them more than others for creating new stuff.

I have no respect for any guru who tolerates unfair advantages in promotion. It goes against being alpha to refuse to compete on equal footing. You can bet if any of the guys I listed were excluded from advertising the way their competitors are that they wouldn't be so gracious about it. You can say you don't care as a customer, but competition benefits the consumer, and unless you want weaker methods than you'd get with full competition, your love life will suffer at the expense of the lack of competition among gurus.

In any other industry, a group of competing businesses that act together is called a CARTEL, not a "community."

Now chew on this: the "excluded" gurus have an interest in destroying the value of the existing pickup information because they aren't profiting from it. If they aren't getting credit and aren't getting paid because they aren't a "chosen" one, all they can do is hope for mainstream exposure, a new game, and a new, fair market to open up. Or they can just flip sides and teach defense to the women without giving up any new ideas.

If these were taxis, and only one cab serviced your area, you'd pay higher for an inferior ride whose driver wouldn't care what you thought of his car since he wouldn't have to.

No one forced Juggler to capitalize on this exclusion. He did that all on his own. That he felt the need to tells me he's no true alpha, since a true alpha doesn't fear competition.

[Tantric]

Different than the last 300 guys who read The Game and tried the same shit on her? She raises her voice to turn those around you against the guy. She always has the advantage of the "jury" in her favor, no matter how alpha the guy thinks he is.

Not in my experience--if you put her in the position of violating reasonable norms then I find her group often takes my side and she has to accept and it's on. If your experience is different maybe I can help.

If someone takes a line in a given interaction that forces them to be obnoxious and bitchy, and they actually are a nasty enough human to stay with that face, I'm moving on with no regrets.


Guys who call themselves "fun, confident" are like average chicks who call themselves "sexy." Isn't it up to the target to decide this?


No. Her opinion of me doesn't affect the way I approach her and is irrelevant to my interest in her, at least in the first 10 minutes of my approach.


Is it on for the next six guys who try the same shit after reading The Game or watching VH-1? Does she get on the pool table until every last PUA has had his turn because they are all "fun, confident?" If she can't stop a PUA, neither can you stop the new PUAs who copy your success until the Red Queen is done.


It might be. I don't give those guys any thought though. They are of course welcome to go at it once I've won or lost. Simply put, they are irrelevent to any given interaction.

No one here is asserting that PUA's can't be stopped either. Not sure where you came up with that.


Any claim that you are fundamentally more desirable than other men is an AFC claim to getting the girl, not a PUA claim.


I'm not measuring myself relative to anyone. I make no claim on being either a PUA nor an AFC. She either wants me now, or doesn't. Either way I'm having fun.


You could rob a bank and score $25,000 from the vault thinking you did well until you found out there was another $3 mil in a hole in the wall of the vault that you could have had instead if you weren't so married to your "method" of bank robbery (or PUA or whatever).


Well that's true, and one reason I'm not married to a "method".


A club where she hasn't paid a cover charge and you likely have, where she might be PAID to hang out, and where you're $30 and four hours in the hole just to get your chance to walk up. You're beginning the at-bat with an expensive 0-2 count.


You must be mistaking me for someone who wastes time in clubs hitting on vapid loser women. If you've spent a lot of time there then you know, like me, that its far easier to find quality women in someplace other than a high cover charge club.


Women are only fundamentally easy if you are fundamentally desirable.

Yep. And most of us, it turns out, are--we just didn't know it until we studied some sort of method.

Men and women will get together to rub fur no matter what. No method or lack of it will stand in the way ultimately.



Other guys can do it to. Imagine THAT! If she can't stop you, neither she nor you can stop the other guys.


There you go again with the can't be stopped stuff. Who's claiming that? Let's kick their ass!


My original point was that this particular interaction had the PUA insulting the target as part of the pickup, something that happens a lot, especially if she's putting up a shield. That boils down to the PUA soliciting the target and getting mad when she doesn't comply with his agenda.

Now you're getting to some meat.

It's only an insult if the entire communication makes it one--tone, expression, body language--"insulting words" only come across reactive if you are in fact emotionally reactive. It probably happens to lots of us in the beginning but isn't a big problem to overcome frankly. Once the man realizes it isn't an insult then he can react appropriately, which checkmates her and the shield (usually) comes down.

Same thing happens when they call names after crashing and burning.

Most I see here and have met up with in person are way beyond that. Maybe you need some new wings.

All the best!

Tantric

[blade18rivers]

She might but like with most things we are communicating less with words than expression, tone, and body language. If those elements are saying "Hey, I'm a fun, confident guy and your shield doesn't worry me in the least" then she's unlikely to raise her voice. She'll probably start to realize that this guy is different.

Now lets' say she does react with what you said, but her own body language was open, smiling, interested. In this case you have a keeper and ITS ON!

Look, these little socially contrived interactions we undertake all have a risk of NOT WORKING sometimes. It ain't the method that's wrong. It could be you have spinach in your teeth, her dad just got cancer, she's a substance abuser, whatever.

Walking up to a girl in a dance club and saying "what's interesting in your day?" is maybe low percentage all else being equal. Sort of like using the jealous girlfriend opener while your in line at the bakery. Context of conversations is important and while you could possibly pull in either situation it aint the method. It's because girls are fundamentally easy if you don't fuck things up with needy body language or tone. Hell, if you come across as solid and confident, you can even LEAN IN to a woman in a bar!!! IMAGINE THAT!

Rules are made to be broken once you understand the principles.


You got it right bro! Newbies find it hard to understand this.

Well said.

[X-Press]

My favorite part from the Juggler Method is the escalating on her effort and high points concept. It seems nowadays to be about getting her to make the most investment and escalating as a reward for that which assumes you are high value. To me, there are not much difference between MM and JM except JM can get you to comfort faster than MM via bypassing doing the routines. I think routines help though in like club environments where there are lots of other guys who attract attention... I guess it depends on the situation.

[harvest]

are there others who think mm and jm are some what alike???

[Greystoke]

are there others who think mm and jm are some what alike???

Every PU method is somewhat alike. Attraction-comfort-seduction is a universal structure in all PU methods, including natural structured game and direct game.

Some methods are purely inner game.

[Abower The Don]

Inner game methods suck ass.

[harvest]

and the jugler methode is all innergame???
wich met do you like don??

[Deft9]

I've been interested in JM lately since it doesn't seem to rely on routines. However, Juggler seems to skip the attract phase and go directly into comfort (rapport building). In MM this is a sequencing error that leads to the friend zone.

Maybe it works for him because he is DHVing with confidence and humor during the interaction, and thus building attraction. A-C-S just makes more sense to me, especially in the loud, crowded bars that I usually go to.

[haoqi]

Juggler method is advantage more than mystery method。BTW,mystery method is greatest simple and It's funny