does pick-up work for girls?

[Latin Lover]

I'm starting a life coaching website and its nearly up. part of it obviously deals with relationships and i have much advice to give guys on getting into a relationship and becoming more attractive to girls.

however, if i'm going to be doing life coaching for men and women, obviously i will probably end up having to give women advice as well. so i googled pick-up for women and bought the best books i could find and it was all shit on a stick.

anyway, i'm particularly interested in helping less attractive girls. it seems to me there are a couple of problems here. since guys are so much more visual - at least when it comes to first impressions, my current thinking leans towards the idea of not hitting on a guy too early on but just dhv'ing whilst being around them, so that the attraction can grow gradually. my thinking is that if you force a guy to decide if he likes you straight away then if your less attractive he may decide rather early on 'i dont find her attractive'. whereas if he sees you around about and gets comfortable first his feelings may grow and then his attraction may grow. ie. since guys are so visual if he doesnt like the visual straight away and is forced to make a decision he may decide 'no'. so i guess comfort first then attraction.

however - this makes bar and club pick up difficult. because the idea with that kind of pick-up is to attract fast. any advice on fast attraction for less attractive girls. by the way - my aim is to help girls get relationships, not just a fuck! call me old-fasioned. also is there any good literature on this subject?

also - it seems to me that a really attractive thing in a guy is if he is bold and confident. if a girl has to approach a guy because guys arnt approaching her - wont that make her lose some attraction for him since he is not showing confidence and alphaness - ie. if she does do pick-up surely she will be getting guys she is less attracted to?

[DirtyD]

Maybe my memory is kinda bad, but I seem to recall Mystery saying that the model is pretty much what they observed girls using on guys to begin with.

If not, years ago I noticed a girl using the handshake neg on me, having a conveniently placed friend wing for her... everything all the way up to isolating me and # closing. The reason it didn't go further is because we lost contact after she stole some equipment from the Mass Comm building...

but yeah... it works... although she was somewhat attractive and I think she resorted to pick up because she had a few mental problems

[Latin Lover]

hahahahaha. good post. yeah girls do do this stuff a lot. but they also only pull it off with people who are already attracted to them i recon. the problem i am presenting is that perhaps it is difficult for less attractive girls to get guys to be attracted to them. and a few other issues i raised (see above). its more about the attraction phase than the later stuff. fast attraction in bars etc. that must be hard for less attractive girls. once a guy is interested then she can really start doing her girl thang! will DHV'ing be as good for getting attraction in a bar? (for a girl). also in terms of false iois - that must be a major issue - cos guys wanna get laid - but not necessarily anything else sometimes. how does a girl avoid getting guys that just wanna use her for a fuck?

[Tay Tay]

Asab and I had to put our heads together because this is a hard topic. The only advice we can give is to read fashion magazines, have good hygiene, and be social
...There's really not much else they could do that I can think of

[Peach]

another reason I got in to pick up.
I had an extremely unattractivr friend who was outrageously social.
This girl could get hot guys at the drop of hat
And I was jealous cuz I was ten more attractive
And socially inept.
I tried competing with her outrageous personality.
Way more outrageous than Mine.

So I do think there all girls out there who can do this. Cuz I remember talking to these dudes when she left
And they may not how found her attractive but there was just something about her.

The girl had natural game.

[Latin Lover]

thanks guys.

peach that is EXACTLY what i wanted to hear. thank you soooooo much for posting that. that will massively effect the advice i can give to girls. i already have girls asking me to advise them and this will help. so i thought you guys were on the forum because you were interested and enjoyed the topic about guys picking up girls- am i right in saying you are actually here to try to learn about pick-up for yourselves? like i said i didnt realise this stuff worked for girls. you are opening my eyes here.

still have this question - if you have to approach a guy, doesnt that make you lose attraction for him cos i find one of the main attraction switches for girls is us being alpha and cocky and bold etc

[Peach]

I really don't honestly like to approach guys. Anxiety and all.
(trying to overcome that)
But it does suck when you can tell their eyeing you and they can't get the nerve to approach you.
So I guess a girl can lose a bit Attraction. But I'm sure he can gain it back ten fold if things work out.

I like being approached.
Spotlight on you.
LOL
Plus I'm sure guys think being opened by a girl can be a little hot.
It shows your confident and you know what you want.
e

[Latin Lover]

yeah but if a girl approaches me she better IOD bigtime or i will think she's desperate. i guess its all the same for girls approaching guys. i remember a hot girl approaching me once. she was like a proper pua. i was turned on. but then she shit tested. 'are you gay?'
me: 'why does it matter to you?'
her: 'cos i want to have sex with you later and so i want to know if you are gay'

i was completely thrown and so she went and found a more alpha male - hahahaha. afc. not sure how this is relevant but just remebered it and thought it was funny.

[Latin Lover]

by the way i love your signiture peach - that's the fucking funniest!!!!!! lol

[Peach]

fucking thank you!!!
You just gave me a great idea for a fucking opener

Me:
Hey you guys. I have a question what do you think about girls who approach guys.
Do you find it sexy cuz you think you know what she wants?
Or do you find it weird and that it makes her seem kinda desperate ??

DumbHotGuy/target
Blah blah blah
Set opened!!!!
Now I can AFOG the group and take it from there.

Oh afog Is alpha female of the group.
Or as I like to call it:
Being lead bitch


LOL thanks Latin. I'm glad you like the sig.
It's kinds stolen
Have you everyseen the viral video shoes on YouTube ?
I stole the basic and switched up the lingo

yeah but if a girl approaches me she better IOD bigtime or i will think she's desperate. i guess its all the same for girls approaching guys. i remember a hot girl approaching me once. she was like a proper pua. i was turned on. but then she shit tested. 'are you gay?'
me: 'why does it matter to you?'
her: 'cos i want to have sex with you later and so i want to know if you are gay'

i was completely thrown and so she went and found a more alpha male - hahahaha. afc. not sure how this is relevant but just remebered it and thought it was funny.

[Latin Lover]

loves it. let me know if it works!!!! personally i never use opinion openers cos they smack of falseness to me. i always try to use something that seems natural ish. i then have more confidence to approach and really its all about whether you have confidence on approach.

so afog. that really intrigues me. i kinda thought the whole thing about amog was an evolutionary thing - alpha male will protect a female out in the big wide world - protect the family and children etc. however the more stuff i read about attraction etc. the more that the stuff we think is only true for girls seems to not be so true. i read loads of psychology and a couple of days ago i read that physical attractiveness is as important for women as for men. apparently if women are asked how important they rate physical attractiveness they say its less important than men do - but when doing more objective tests it shows up that it is equally important for women. however that's typical of women from my perspective - but lets not get side tracked there (another topic altogether). the point is once again it seems that women arnt so different from men in this regard.

so anyway - back to afog - you recon that's attractive to a guy? dont some guys like pretty little submissive girls? my housemate is into dominence etc - master servant stuff. he says he definately wouldnt like afog hahaha. but there's probably women who are the same who dont like amog - so my sample of 1 is possibly irrelevant.

reading the latest academic stuff on attraction they actually play down the evolutionary slant a lot - and say that what men and women are attracted to are governed far more by other factors and are far more similar that traditional evolutionary psychologists used to claim.

[Peach]

I think of the AFOG as the queen bee mentality. Think mean girls just less mean and less dramatic.
The girl all the girls hate but want to be her friend.
The one all of the boys lust after.
She's like a hostess. She hosts the conversation, she manipulates if needed.

She is companion to the AMOG therefore she is attractive to the amog if they are on the same level.
She also has a very big affect on your mindset.
The AFOG could be the reason why you have approach anxiety because you were either humilated or rejected by an AFOG in the past.
She has a profound effect.
She can cause fear, she can make you sweat she is desirable.
She can also be a complete bitch
Rip you to shreds and emasculate you to your core if you let her,
Negs work on insecure AFOG's especially if they are extremely dominant.
The AFOG is essentially your target when you open sets and her giggling friends are your obstacles and her wing women. This is why you start with them first.
It all goes back to her. By getting in good with her friends you have established yourself. You have created value.
That Is essentially why you ignore the target first,

She hates that. She is AFOG therefore she must be front and center.

[Latin Lover]

wow! where did you get this thinking from? this is brilliant. have you read this stuff anywhere or is it your own thoughts? what made you get into this stuff in the first place - what made you think it would work for girls? we sooooo have to go sarging together sometime!!! how about it. we could perhaps meet up half way - maybe Istanbul or somewhere?

[Argo navis]

Peach : the profile you describe is the typical social robot in female.

she manipulates if needed.


Manipulation or coercion are a sign of inner weakness, love killers, and may be seduction killers too.

And this is downright nonsensical :

Negs work on insecure AFOG's especially if they are extremely dominant.


So she's insecurely dominantly dominant?
I am not trying to pick on you : I dislike anything that sounds like an ego spike wether it is from boys or girls.

An AFOG is a self assured girl who is open about her sexuality, living it fully, very clear on her purpose and choices, and acts accordingly. If she needs to constantly be the center of attention she is an attention whore - the opposite of Alpha.

I should highlight another thing, which is why I am still mixed about you - I find you're coping decently with a forum full of males, but I also find you have a lot of ways to improve your social skills - like everybody here, and I'd start by picking the words in your above post, for one.


humilated / rejected / She can cause fear, she can make you sweat she is desirable / She can also be a complete bitch Rip you to shreds and emasculate you to your core if you let her,


And a person packed with so much hatred would be appealing to me you think? Now that's interesting. And causing fear and making people sweat is desirable?

...

But more than that : when you describe your own approach to seduction, there is so much negativity in it it sounds like a war plan. So your goal is to feel empowered at emasculating males? Is that what you're saying?

Cause that's what I read.

...

That girl : if she was an AFOG, yes she'd keep competing with other girls - that happens, girls ARE about competition among each other, but she wouldn't do it on harmful and violent terms. If she had INNER POWER violence would be futile for respect would come to her.

[Peach]

I'm talking about a specific type I AFOG.
I was talking about the mean girl type think.
Regina George from mean girls.

This Is not the Afog I hope to project, or have people think I am. She is a. Character because she is fake.

The reason why a negs might work on a girl like that who is a dominant AFog is because it's an act.
It's a display.
You just have to tear that down and get her to be real with you.

Also a girl like this isn't going to let you know she's insecure. You gotta be good at reading people.

[Peach]

I consider myself as AFOG host.
I don't try to use to negative qualities.

I like to host the conversation.

[Peach]

I'm sorry maybe I should have pointed out that I use some of those qualities like the host and conversation monopolying.
I take back the character part because maybe that's not a functional person.
It's more bits and pieces from AFOG's I have known and seen in action.
They can be brutal.
Just take the good from it and transcend it I guess.
A

...

But more than that : when you describe your own approach to seduction, there is so much negativity in it it sounds like a war plan. So your goal is to feel empowered at emasculating males? Is that what you're saying?

Cause that's what I read.

...

That girl : if she was an AFOG, yes she'd keep competing with other girls - that happens, girls ARE about competition among each other, but she wouldn't do it on harmful and violent terms. If she had INNER POWER violence would be futile for respect would come to her.

[Argo navis]

Yeah, I see, caught up on the whole thread - you might have touched one of my personal pet peeves here, I've seen so many spoilt beauties who needed to prove something when they had everything :)

Excellent points on the neg dynamics this said.

About what you said earlier : a girl who is confident like that (approaches) is hot, but it's all the same game of hide and seek - hide too much, nobody wants to find you, don't hide enough, it's the same. You're better off giving enough cues to get the guy to make a move.


This Is not the Afog I hope to project, or have people think I am.


Sometimes you did give me that impression. With time you'll be winning me a bit more each time you invest energy in something constructive as this thread. I think I really like this idea of female puas roaming the halls with pink on their names :)

[Peach]

wow! where did you get this thinking from? this is brilliant. have you read this stuff anywhere or is it your own thoughts? what made you get into this stuff in the first place - what made you think it would work for girls? we sooooo have to go sarging together sometime!!! how about it. we could perhaps meet up half way - maybe Istanbul or somewhere?
I went to an all-girls school. We had numerous Afogs. It was like being in a telvision series.
Hey I was projecting in my set a good AFOG so to speak.
I gotta remind you I was just telling you some AFOG qualities.
They're not pretty.
Some are nice.

Others just suck,

[Latin Lover]

"But more than that : when you describe your own approach to seduction, there is so much negativity in it it sounds like a war plan. So your goal is to feel empowered at emasculating males? Is that what you're saying?"

hahahahahahahahahaha lmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yeah - god i cant imagine ANY of the male pick-up artists channelling subconcious aggressions into their seduction prowess!!!! hahahahaha

have you ever heard of a guy called mystery! lol lmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Argo navis]

I am not worried : I couldn't give less of a damn about the girls YOU fuck, pardon my french, but I do remember you asking how to find real quality people :)

Although I hardly remember Mystery grossly manipulating, and trying to emasculate and tear his girls to shreds - can you quote that one for me?

And yes, I am concerned about the educational power of a forum and speaking my mind. I am concerned by social robots - cause they are a pain in their ass and in mine - and concerned not to convey things like "negs are meant to shred people apart" - for myself.

But as a gentleman, I will leave your opinion on my concerns entirely up to you.

Cheers,
Argo

[Peach]

oh argo !!!!
You make Me smile consistantly but let's play nice !

[azazels_wolf]

Latin Lover:

Venusian Arts isn't about negativity or projecting it onto others.
In fact, I highly suggest you read through this thread:

Positivity and the True Nature of the Venusian Arts
http://www.venusianarts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7816

Learn from this. It will help you a lot to apply even a few of these ideas.

[Latin Lover]

oh thank god for that - i thought i was going to get a warning when i saw your name on the thread!

you are a particularly positive poster azazels - i'm not certain everyone on the forum shares your positive vibes.

i say what i say for a few reasons.

1 is just an achoeing of standard psychoanalytic thinking - that aggression and sexual drives are different channellings of the same id impulses and that one can be a sublimation for the other.

secondly, i suggest that many of us who are involved in this forum have high levels of aggression and sex dive - that the 2 are possibly very linked as freud suggested. also it seems to me that the alpha male is typically very aggressive and that girls find that very attractive, if it is tempered with an ability to show sensitivity and caringness at other times.

thirdly, i speak for myself as much as anyone else here, although things are somewhat different for me now, i think many get into this to get laid as much as possible, and to prove that we are amazing pua's and that we are the best etc etc. i certainly read mystery refering to himself as 'the best pick-up artist in the world' a couple of times in 'the game' neil strauss book. here i think we see what a psychoanalyst would see as quite an aggressive approach in its own right. aggression and competitiveness and dominance are very linked in personality trait terms - there is high correlation.

as for the admirable aforementioned post about the virtue of the true Venusian Artist over the bogstandard pua - nice ideas. i dont think that changes what i'm saying about the nature of many of us in the community or about the nature of how we sublimate aggression for sexuality and vice versa and the links between the two.

[azazels_wolf]

That may indeed be the case, but every action is a choice. If you act on negativity or aggression, you are choosing to do so.

It's better to understand where those impulses are coming from and then decide whether or not it is good to act upon them, according to the situation at hand.

[Argo navis]

Channeled agressivity is a force : I hardly headbutt girls as an opener. Agressivity unleashed is a weakness - and a sign of weakness : in line with your attempt at making fun of an otherwise sincere and helpful advice, little girl is now propped up in her ego and trying to get provocative as well.

And this is exactly what I don't like about her ways : before you came in, and before I fought claws and fangs to have some kiddos understand they should not over-neg or bash or flame down girls, we had examples of girls reporting male PUAS becoming physically violent or threatening.

I even had an asshole tell me, once, "I told girl x she should sleep with or I would break her arms".

Hail to agressivity and your humor : I am not as actively positive as Wolf, but I've been here, done that, I am not around for the glitters and the show - up to you to see if and how you can use what I freely share.

[Latin Lover]

azezels i totally agree. i think the more awareness we have of the kinds of sources of our actions the better. if we're more aware we're less likely to, for example, let our aggression get the better of us. it is a choice.

along the lines of choice etc. in response to argo - i really agree with what your saying about negs etc. i dont use negs beacuse i see dont like that. i dont like trying to lower someone's self-esteem. i use tease negs constantly - but i think they are slightly different - a girl will usually playfully laugh and try to come back at you with something - its not to lower self esteem - more to see you as a strong male who isnt going to mince his words and be your lap dog.

i didnt understand everything you said in your last post there but i think your pissed off with me for taking the mick out of your comment.

[Argo navis]

My comments were not aimed at making Peach feel bad : it was meant for provoking reflexion, sorry I interrupted the vibe but I really reacted about past events that have been very disagreeable - I really am "concerned" here because I am taking it as "let's give the girl a chance to grow the way she wants" and she was doing just that.

Besides, Azazels Wolf is the first person to tell me when I am dorky - don't think he will ever "favour" me in any regard, if I am to act like an asshole, like an asshole I will be treated.

But it clearly was not the case or the intent here - a mere "look, maybe you could convey some things better". A slight neg is awesome and cockiness rules with a dose of fun, but when it gets about cutting my testicles, I turn bold, transform into Tom Hanks, and start singing :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x41vem_tom-hanks-please-dont-cut-my-testic_music

Peace out. For more constructivity, I think I even got a few tips to add to the forum advice section :)

[azazels_wolf]

I am not as actively positive as Wolf, but I've been here, done that, I am not around for the glitters and the show

*ahem* Heh... did you just neg me? :P
I hardly get to see much glitter while I'm dealing with the shit that gets thrown around by the fan.... *cough*

But you're absolutely right about getting some of the more inexperienced members to understand that overly aggressive behavior and over-negging to the point of insult are simply not attractive.

[Cuisine]

You can help her. Work on her clothing and body language...since you wnat every advantage you can get...but personality is key. Being friendly and social (DHVing hsould help) will get her guys. Yes...the problem here is men who only want to sleep w/her cuz they think she will be easier. She needs to learn how to screen for what...like acreen for relationship-minded men. You need to find out what she wants in a man and help her screen for it.

I'd recommend having her read Art of Seduction (SHE MUST READ THIS) and Superflirt and Superdate. I'd avoid the Rules and Mars/Venus. There is a flirting book for women that seems to be adapted from Art of Seduction (it has victem types) but I don't know that it is any good...and my other recommendations should suffice.

That said....I'd probably keep her OUT of bars. You'd be better helping her at social game...Speeddating, social events (including themed social events and benefits, etc). She should also try and meet friends through friends...by maybe planning outtings and tellign ppl to bring ppl and seeing what happens. In this way...she doesn't have to do cold approaches...which is good because you dont wnat her to since it can be a red flag (because usually less attractive women doing it).

Ok Bars if she has to: Yes, she could use proximity. And she could use her friends in a bar as pivots/pawns/bait if she had to but It would be bette rif she didnt. she should also be using lock in and holding court. anything she opens should be "drive-bys" where the guy can follow up or not.

Internet game should work for her as well.

I have less attractive female friends who do well with social and internet game.

I also have a HB7 female friend who has learned some game and body language tools from me and basically works pickup and will lead interractions, dates, relationships if she has to.

-Cuisine


I'm starting a life coaching website and its nearly up. part of it obviously deals with relationships and i have much advice to give guys on getting into a relationship and becoming more attractive to girls.

however, if i'm going to be doing life coaching for men and women, obviously i will probably end up having to give women advice as well. so i googled pick-up for women and bought the best books i could find and it was all shit on a stick.

anyway, i'm particularly interested in helping less attractive girls. it seems to me there are a couple of problems here. since guys are so much more visual - at least when it comes to first impressions, my current thinking leans towards the idea of not hitting on a guy too early on but just dhv'ing whilst being around them, so that the attraction can grow gradually. my thinking is that if you force a guy to decide if he likes you straight away then if your less attractive he may decide rather early on 'i dont find her attractive'. whereas if he sees you around about and gets comfortable first his feelings may grow and then his attraction may grow. ie. since guys are so visual if he doesnt like the visual straight away and is forced to make a decision he may decide 'no'. so i guess comfort first then attraction.

however - this makes bar and club pick up difficult. because the idea with that kind of pick-up is to attract fast. any advice on fast attraction for less attractive girls. by the way - my aim is to help girls get relationships, not just a fuck! call me old-fasioned. also is there any good literature on this subject?

also - it seems to me that a really attractive thing in a guy is if he is bold and confident. if a girl has to approach a guy because guys arnt approaching her - wont that make her lose some attraction for him since he is not showing confidence and alphaness - ie. if she does do pick-up surely she will be getting guys she is less attracted to?

[Latin Lover]

thanks man! i really really appreciate you writing this and i will DEFINATELY buy those books. some of what your saying is along the lines of what i've been thinking a bit. have been unsure about how good an idea bar stuff is for those girls.

however, peach has inspired me. why? because i am starting to wonder now whether some of the more forward stuff and afog stuff might be able to be harnessed. clearly the problem is if you are looking for a relationship rather than sex what kind of guy you might be getting if you are really forward etc. but hey i have the same problem as a guy. a girl i really like just seduced me and then LJBF'd me after i'd really fallen for her. there's much food for thought here and i will think on this all more.

[Peach]

AFOG AMOG AHOG
Bottom line they all have negative tendancies.
You just choose to use them

[Argo navis]

it's not playing hard which makes the game fun, it's playing.

[Latin Lover]

i just remembered that in 'the game' the juggler got an ltr and then quit pick-up and set up a website dedicated to helping girls find good guys. does anyone know anything about this? i actually really wanted to read some of his stuff anyway cos i liked his vibe.

[Peach]

well www.charismaarts.com is his website currently.
That's all I know

[Latin Lover]

thanks peach. not much there about finding guys. clearly he got back into pick-up. damn!

[Peach]

there is money in this business.
I think CA
Sucks.
But I'm still buying his ebook.
It's cheep

[acesulfamek]

Peach,

I recommend Juggler's ebook: "How to be a Pickup Artist". Its really great for people who have trouble with quickly relating to people and having great conversations. It's got excellent ways of building sexual tension with your targets.

Though, from looking from some of your threads and Lay report I don't know if you would need it since you seem to have that skill already. Still, post what you think of the book. I'm interested in what girls think of it. Personally, I think its one of the best books out there.

[Dale]

Asab and I had to put our heads together because this is a hard topic. The only advice we can give is to read fashion magazines, have good hygiene, and be social
...There's really not much else they could do that I can think of

Strongly disagree on the "read fashion magazines" idea. Only gay men and other women care about fashion -- straight men couldn't care less about your fashion, and especially brands. They care they you dress appropriately for the venue -- not a street hooker outfit and not a Muslim burka, and they care whether or not you look too high maintenance.