Cracking the code, The real LTR..

[Horus]

Note to readers:

This thread was written a while back on the old forum. I am posting it here to gather opinions on the concept regarding the Lover/Provider theory expressed in the thread. The story regarding the women I was involved with is an old situation that I decided to input to add to the theory expressed. Therefore it does not need to be addressed for any sort of gaming, unless it is to address the thorey at hand. I want to clarify this only because at the time of posting this, that relashionship was still sort of fresh and was being addressed more so the main reason for the thread, the Lover/Provider thorey.

I know it is a long thread, if you have the patients to read it, please do. Thanks and happy reading, maybe I’m on to something who knows? Please post your thoughts.

Best,
Horus





Its Christmas Eve night and I find myself unable to stop thinking of the girl I have been f-closing for the past 8 months. There is only one problem, she has a boyfriend. The same man she’s been with for the past 3 ½ years. Lately the sex has stopped but she still continues to keep in contact with me, and as she says “I’m still confused”

As my journey to find the answer continues I try to understand why she still hasn’t chosen me, why she still continues to keep him and sneak out to find me. For the last 9 months I have been struggling and constantly asking myself the same questions; did I show DHV? When I said that was It AFC? Did I properly execute the LMR?

All was good, I f-closed countless times, and even though her boyfriend found out he toke her back the same day, no questions. This I found was massive DLV on his part but it wasn’t enough. What puzzled me is she wanted to go back, but she didn’t want to lose me either. The questions mounted, “how can she want him back after such a demonstration of low value, I mean he cried his eyes out in front of her like a baby, that is so Wussy”

“I am in love with 2 people” she says to me. I did not know what to think or if I should even believe her for that matter. I began to think many things, at first I thought I was being GAMED. “Can she be gaming me?.” But the day came; I saw the tears and knew she wasn’t lying. She really did love two men I just didn’t understand how this was happening. I did everything right but I was missing something…….

I went back to basics, my first teacher of seduction David DeAngelo. One night a friend of mine came over and I popped in a DVD from David DeAngelos advanced dating series. I was introducing him to the seduction community and what I had been learning for the last 4 years. The information all though old and already processed gave me insight into the world she was living in. A theory I had been preaching for the last 4 years and I neglected to apply it to my situation. The Triune Brain Theory. Where it all made sense to me. I knew the answer was there staring right at me, but I couldn’t see it. It wasn’t until Christmas Eve that the answer would present itself so unexpectedly, and from someone whom I would have never thought could bring so much light.

Christmas Eve, both of my aunts are sitting next to the fireplace exchanging stories of there lost loves. They are both in there 50’s and one of them is still attractive for her age. She has been divorced and has chosen to never marry again but has had a steady boyfriend for the past 15 years. As she speaks of her once true love, her ex-husband, you can still hear the love as she speaks about him, even though it was almost 35 years ago. As I enter the conversation I decided to speak about love through my eyes and what it really means to me. My aunt looked at me and said “you’ve never truly been in love yet.” I laughed, she responds: “A man, who is truly in love, will try all he can to give her everything she needs” I laughed harder and said sorry I don’t support AFC behavior. However, I translated that into terminology she understood. She turned to me and said “Of course not, you don’t want to come across as needy or desperate, that’s very unattractive and not what a real man would do” At this point I knew she was with it, I then understood she’s been threw allot of life experiences and she’s got to know about how all this works. She continues “A women wants to feel stabile with her man. Looks really aren’t that important, I mean as long as your not hideous even less then average will do. See a women wants to feel taken care of, supported. She wants to know that her man will PROVIDE for her, take care of the nest, and always be there for her when she needs him”

I understood what she was saying but I knew everything I had learned over the years about human evolution and psychology tied in some how. Or I was hoping it did because I didn’t want all this knowledge to go to waste.

The holiday’s progress and I find myself still searching for the missing piece to puzzle.

My friend whom now calls himself “Fingerz” is grasping it all very quickly. As now with his new found knowledge of women he analyzes my situation.

He says: “All I am doing is telling you everything you taught me, how can you forget all the things you learned? You taught me everything I know, and you don’t remember this?”

I was disappointed and curious, what was he talking about? I knew he was about to tell me something I was going to learn. “What is it?” I say.

Fingerz: “Don’t you get it? You’re stimulating her Emotional brain and her thinking brain, but he’s got her Reptilian brain, the most important one for LTRs, the STABILITY”

At this point I knew exactly what he was talking about and I kicked myself for not realizing it sooner, I already knew, I was just so preoccupied in other area’s of the game I forgot the fundamentals, the basics. I think this happens to allot of us.

Two days later, I was responding to a fellow PUA and I was helping him with his situation which is very similar to mine. As I was speaking with him and giving him my opinion and advice the answers came to me. From Christmas Eve, to Fingerz retelling me the knowledge - to helping a fellow PUA, it hit me.

The GAME only teaches us to get the girl, but not how to keep the girl. Its purpose is not to have a LTR but to have a brief encounter of excitement and short lived relationships.

This is why:

For all who have read David DeAngelos “8 Personality Types” it talks about being the LOVER or PROVIDER and the other variations of the two.

Here is what is happening with the seduction community:

The GAME is breeding LOVERS not PROVIDERS.

This is why One-itis is such a common symptom of the game. We are taught catch and release. For us Men that have grown attached to particular women, we reach a point where we want an LTR. But we fail to see why most of them fall short; it’s something we have been missing. We failed to demonstrate solid PROVIDER characteristics.

We are stimulating the Emotional brain (the brain witch controls all our emotions) and our Neo-cortex or the thinking brain (this is where stimulating conversation comes in)

Here is the problem, we are not stimulating the Reptilian brain and if we are to some degree it’s not enough. The reptilian brain is the brain primarily responsible for our basic functions Eat, Kill, Territory, Sex, basic survival and replication functions.

So how does one secure a relationship and become the provider?

For those of you who have f-closed or even had some perhaps minor physical relations with a women that is perhaps married, engaged or a long term boyfriend you will now see how clear this is.

It because you were slotted into the LOVER category. She still has her provider and shell never leave him. He ensures her survival. Unless perhaps YOU the LOVER can show stability.

But then of course this gives birth to another problem….

Why would she leave a secure relationship where all is provided for and there is nothing wrong with the relationship i.e. non abusive cares for her and is not AFC? Why leave the first Provider for an unknown outcome with a man whom she sees as a lover, one who brings excitement and triggers attraction and passion in her.
If you here of a women saying “I am in love with two men” She isn’t lying, she really is.

If she allows herself to continue to speak and explain the feelings she is going through she may further say:

Women: “I don’t know how to explain this, but both of them are different, the feelings I feel with one is different then the feelings I feel with the other, but I love them both just the same”

If you’ve all seen the movie “The Notebook” it touches on this.

This is because one is a PROVIDER and one is a LOVER. Two entirely different levels of attraction but both equally as powerful.

Some Evidence to support the theory:

In a book called “sperm wars” it goes in depth about why men produce so much sperm. Well without going into to much detail the basic premise of the book is that most of the sperm a man produces are there to fight other sperm. YES. Not all your sperm are built to fertilize the egg. Most of them are what they call coma cozy sperm. They are there to fight other SPERM. The book goes on to tell how a women after numerous studies is shown to actually have high increased orgasms in times of infidelity. When she is with her LOVER. The more orgasms she has the more chances she has of retaining sperm. So when a woman is confused between two men perhaps a lover and a provider she will sleep with both of them and let the sperm fight it out in the women’s uterus.

So the question here for us I believe is how do you transition form lover to provider. In my view, once you do there is no turning back. It is much more difficult if not impossible to transition from provider to lover. But it is easier to transition form lover to provider.

[Horus]

You must show stability. You must communicate in a “NON AFC” way that you will always be there for her and she can relay on you forever. This is a big risk in my opinion because she already has a set provider. Economically it would be an unwise decision if not a gamble to choose a provider over another that she is already established with and has grown much comfort with. Unless perhaps the NEW provider offers a higher standard of living and can show perhaps that he can provide more, or that he is more devoted. This could do the trick. Maybe?

DEVOTION
Devotion I believe is symbolized in many ways. A common one we are all familiar with is the RING. It is not a pretty shiny rock that women are attracted to. It is what it represents, devotion and commitment. The bigger the rock the more committed he is to her. This is why the price is more important then the diamond itself. Women where it with pride and like to show off that they have GOT the most devoted man, that they have more stability then other women. (What a catch) Because to them this is success, and it actually really is if you look at it through the evolutionary perspective. This is where the competition lies in one major aspect for women.

Perhaps there are TWO games going on between us man and women. The quest to attract a man for his GENETIC fortune and a QUEST for a man who will provide for her survival. The ultimate catch would be a man with great genes and extremely committed.

The ideal man the, two in ONE. Or as women say “Mr. Right”

This of course is where it becomes difficult for women. We have all heard the stories;

Women: “he’s so good looking, and he turns me on, but I can’t trust him. He’ll cheat on me for sure, especially with all those women around him.”

The loyalty is in question, which indicates that perhaps he may stray and leave her which will affect her chances of survival and successful upbringing of the offspring. This is why you will see more and more a beautiful women with a not so good-looking man. She knows he’s not going anywhere and he will always be there. But of course this will cause her to search for a lover because that is her second primary function. “I need to find a man with a genetic fortune” (subconsciously of course). But this might come out as:

“I’m not feeling it, he just doesn’t do it for me anymore”

So in essence women, it would appear have two purposes in life. To find stability and find good genes for there off spring. There resource based, and they have to be. This is there programming.

Can you be both? If you can then I don’t think there is a reason for her to ever leave you, or be unfaithful.

For those of you have seen the movie SUPERMAN part 2. You will all remember when superman decided to give away all his powers. When he choose to become an ordinary man. He chooses to be mortal and average, all so that he could be with Lois. He stripped himself of all that made him exciting, mysterious and a LOVER. He did get the girl in the end but if you watch the film and you will see a certain ora around Lois a certain disdain in the choice superman made. But he was committed and she loved him just the same. But it was a different kind of “Love”

At one point in the film he loses a bar fight which of course made him appear very UN alpha like. Later on in the movie he decides to become superman again and go back to the way he was. But this isn’t the movies, once you go PROVIDER there is no way back. It’s a psychological shift in the women’s mind. A slotted category if you will. But it is a choice you have to make. It’s a sacrifice, one for the other.

can the two be fused together?

How can one be mysterious, unpredictable, exciting and spontaneous and show raw masculinity, but at the same time be predictable, routine and safe?

If she’s cheating it is because she has calculated in some form consciously but probably unconsciously that there are better genes out there. But she won’t leave you, you provide for her safety and survival and that’s why she loves you.

It’s a choice. Who do you want to be?

Best,
Horus.

[Parnelli]

I would like to say that I enjoyed reading your post - which i saw for the first time a couple of days ago, but hadn't the time then to attempt this reply.

For me, it took me down memory lane on so many levels. First, it brought to my mind a story that i first told 12 years ago at the ripe old age of 20, and which i'd like to share in a moment. Second, it reminded me of a girl I knew just over 8 years ago, who'll looked like a Tarah, so we'll call her that. Also, it brought to my mind a train of thought thats long been on/off in my mind - re-hashing my own experiences with girls over the years.

I will share my old story, which is the foundation for every theory and thought I have on humanity. It underpins everything about us and the cities we build and the loves we know, the whole nine.

Imagine two young cave-monkeys, Jack and Sally, wandering through a forest, when they come to a clearing and see one another. They're both strapping young kids, pretty and handsome, and they are attracted to each other and spend the afternoon making sweet cave-monkey love on the clearings edge. (sometimes i've used cavemen, sometimes monkeys, depending on whether or not the crowd seems likely to go into a tangential tirade over the use of monkeys to describe humans. you know, the old evolution arguments). Imagine that they are nomadic individuals and not part of a tribe or group.

Now flash forward, say, a year. And lets think about each of these two young cave-monkeys and the aftermath of that afternoon.

First, look at Jack. He spent about 100 calories making sweet cave-love. So he needs to find about 10 extra berries to replace those to ensure that he remains well fueled and healthy.

Now, look at Sally. She spent the same 100 calories, and needs the same 10 berries. But there's something else - she might be pregnant. And with this comes a series of curious realities. If she gets pregnant:

-she doesn't need just 100 extra calories, she needs maybe 2000 extra calories every day for 9 months

-in addition to this, her ability to fend for herself is massively reduced for at least a couple/few of those 9 months

-her mobility may be so reduced that she cannot escape danger. i'd like to see a 8 1/2 month pregnant woman climb a tree!

-it doesn't end at 9 months. After that, she has to feed the child, which means that she needs an extra 2 or 3 thousand calories a day for years, and her mobility continues to be reduced (hard to get around when carrying an infant -vs- being solo)


Lets just set the odds of her, purely on her own (remember, for the purpose of this discussion we are assuming nomadic individuals) surviving the pregnancy and raising the child are about 25%. Lets say the odds of her death are about 50% (which takes the child with her), and the odds of the child dying but her surviving are about 25%. Whatever.

So the net evolutionary scorecard for each of our cave-monkeys is this:

jack: essentially no downside, 25% odds of an evolutionary "point"
sally: 25% odds of a positive outcome, 75% chance of a negative outcome, 50% chance of a negative outcome that is total.

Flash forward 100,000 years and take a look at the world around us.

What do guys like in girls? hot chicks that put out, more or less? as a generalization that is true. we could expand that to include other traits such as intelligence or whatever, and leave it as we like "good" chicks. good being defined by our perception (which is molded by the society around us, but thats another story). But seriously, we're visual creatures and if we go with our basic impulses and don't stop to think about what we want in a girl, or what makes us insecure the hottest chick in the room is our choice. period.

What do girls like in guys? holy chit thats a more complicated thing. money, status, intelligence (sometimes! more on that later), senses of humor, blah blah blah, and, yes, looks.

See, what we need and get from them (on a purely evolutionary level) is access to their reproductive system, without which we cannot reproduce. We need access to "quality" eggs.

But what they need from us is both that, and provision. They need us - bigger, faster, and stronger - to run through that forest and find all those millions of calories that it takes to raise that child, to defend them and get them to shelter, and so forth. They need access to "quality" sperm, and someone BOTH able AND willing to provide it.


Now assume a tribal society (and this need to take care of women while they provide the limitlessly wondrous service to humankind of making more of us is w/o a doubt why we are/were tribal) for the heck of it.

What would encompass both of the above more than anything else? The alpha male of the tribe. You guys (the seduction community) are so completely totally massively and utterly right about the alpha thing. It is exactly so. The alpha must have good quality sperm, or he woudln't have been able to rise to the top. And he is obviously able to provide for you as he has more resources than anyone else in the tribe (or, arguably, all of the resources). And he is obviously going to be willing to provide for you and his offspring, because it is evolutionarily insane not to.

OVer the years i have always summarized "able and willing to provide for" a girl by just saying "pay". A girl needs a good man who will "pay". An HB5 is leery of super-hot guys because she doesn't believe they will "pay". etc. pay pay pay pay pay pay

But the online seduction community seems to have lost sight of what an alpha male actually is. He is the leader of a GROUP. And he would provide for every girl he mated with, period.


Look at guys and their tendencies. You can see that some of us are naturally-born alpha-types. YOU CAN'T BE BORN AN ALPHA, ALPHAS ARE LEADERS OF GROUPS, YOU CAN'T BE BORN LEADING A GROUP BECAUSE YOU'RE JUST AN INFANT. YOU CAN'T BE AN ALPHA WITHOUT A CLEAR-CUT GROUP. YOU CAN JUST ACT LIKE ONE. thats a side-note.

But some of us are born alpha-types. We either assume the leadership position or die trying. Or leave if beaten and find a new place to try.

Others are more like "lieutenants", they try to align with alphas or guys that the think might be. This is a profitable position to be in, very profitable.

Remember, people aren't lions. We are not great beasts that can defend an entire tribe ourselves. We need other males around to make sure the tribe can remain safe and sound, and so the alphas cannot take all the females, and must provide well to the other males that help them.

Other guys seem somewhat prone to just falling in line, not striving for much of any position of anything (these guys might not be born this way, they might have just come to feel that they aren't "great" enough to be one of the above categories, i've pondered that alot over the years). These guys are prone to seeking monogamous relationships, and just settle out with whatever girl they can get.

And lastly (these guys may have alot of issues and may not be born this way, i have wondered over the years as well), there seem to be scavenger type males. The least productive to society of the male types. They just sneak a little nookie in when they can, and then scatter off. Take no responsibility for their own offspring. Sleep with enough girls, and that 25% chance IS enough for your genes to make it down through the years.

To an extent, we are all obviously born alpha-types. we'd all be king if we could, i guess. But some of us are more quick than others to assume lesser roles when situations call for it. I tend to think that the last category - the scavenger - is a function of the loss of belief (internally) that one can be a functional part of a group. Much like the sluttiness of some fat girls. If nobody will "pay" for her, she resorts to the female version of this scavenger behavior - i.e., sluttiness.

God this is alot of typing and only the tiniest surface of it all. I have thought alot over the years. :) Thats cool, though. One more thought before i press on to the next part of what i'd like to say:

Mystery's assessment of approach anxiety is, i believe, incorrect.

It is HIGHLY, HIGHLY unlikely that ancient tribal people appealed to a girl for the girls affection. It is highly, highly likely that they appealed to the tribal leader, to the "alpha"

look at typical male response to "wanting more chicks". They lift weights, get in shape, dream of money, cars, try to be funnier, tell girls they will date them, etc. As many a PUA has stated, they try to appeal to a girls rational mind. Well, if you're appealing to a MALE, a rational appeal of presenting your virtues IS THE WAY TO GO.

And the fear of reprisal isn't because the other guys want the girl and out of competitiveness would kill you, its because scavenger type behavior IS REALLY A PROBLEM for the tribe. Everybody has to work hard enough to survive as it is, and if somebody does some boning w/o "paying" for the results of that boning, tahts a burden on everybody.

The "chief" will kill you not because he wants the girl, but because you are being a threat to the entire tribe.

We once appealed to men, NOT WOMEN, for the affection of women. Women were highly probably NOT free to choose their mates.

hence, the almost universal "AFC" behavior IS EVOLUTIONARILY CORRECT. That alone can get to be a long convo, i offer this just as a thought for your consideration.

[Parnelli]

Now that brings me to the second part of the thoughts your post inspired in my lil head.

A girl named "tarah".

I met "tarah" at a bar, and like about 2/3 of the girls i've ever been lucky enough to recieve affection from, she once told me that she liked me because i was a contrast unto myself. I was in a friendly, but intense, argument about feminism with my most-superlative friend Andy at my favorite bar. I probably looked aggressive and over-zealous to people that weren't used to my rantish arguing style. She apparently overheard from a nearby table, told my friend Tom (also her friend) that i was a total asshole. Then i began, as was my custom in those days, pumping money into the jukebox, playing a ridiculous blend of country, blondie, punk, more blondie, and jimmy buffet, and drinking myself into the 7th level of hell.

Then Tom came over and said "you better apologize to this table of ladies, they've been talking about how big of a dick you are for the last hour".

So i went over there and promptly became too drunk to clearly remember the rest of the details.

I sobered up a bit by the time we got home (she came with) to continue partying, and for the rest of the evening we sat in my bedroom shooting the chit. She was a very nice girl. She forgave me for being a dickhead.

Soon after we started a very sexual relationship. We did it left, we did it right, we did it in furniture stores when nobody was looking, we did it up, we did it down, we did it in cars we took for test drives from dealerships. It was awesome! She was so damn sweet. She painted me a painting that I will keep to my last breath.

She had a boyfriend, a total supplicating AFC. As in your story, shed dated him for several years. She was sick of him, and I was her foray into the possibility of other guys, i guess.

One night she was over and her guy came yelling, his voice breaking up, for her. She hid on my porch and said to not say she was there.

She never saw me again. Stone-cold rejection after that night is all she ever gave me.

apparently he'd asked her, she told him, he had a breakdown and begged her to stay, and she stayed.

I always wrote it off in my mind as something arrogant, like "i was too much for her" or "she was scared of actually having feelings for a guy" or whatever. I'm still cool, even though i lost to this otehr guy, because it was my coolness that caused it. That was my ILL-CONCIEVED rationalization.


Stop and think about the true nature of an alpha male. He would absolutely, positively, no question, no doubt, take care of his offspring. Could, and would.

At that point in my life, i did NOT meet that criteria. He did.

I was a wild child in every way, out of control and soaking up everything i could find in life that looked shiny or interesting or at least new.


So here's the kicker: the reason that girl chose the other guy, a total AFC, instead of me, the coolest guy i knew at that time, was because he was MORE alpha. BY FAR.

think about it. take away that "can and will" (either one, can or will, and believe me girls focus more on the will) and you have nothing even remotely close to an alpha. And to all my fellow VA forum readers, that is something worth considering if you have any desire to settle down with a girl. You have to meet the whole criteria.

And when you stop to consider that the point of sex is to have kids, to pass on your genes, and further consider than in our society today a marriage is really the only way to go about that if you want to take care of them, it becomes something to consider indeed.

An "AFC" perhaps fails to meet the "good sperm" criteria, but even the greatest ladies man could easily fail to meet the "provider" one. Why, says the girls mind, would you ever really sit down and take care of her when you can get so many more girls? And do.

Also, the other guy is probably a part of her social circle. Her friends approve of him, they hang out together. Social groups are more powerful than individuals if people are really attached to them (the group). And outsider has so little sway relative to the power of the group.

At different phases in their lives, girls weigh "good sperm" -vs- "safety" differently. Young girls with daddy around (imagine girl still living at home at 19), if beautiful, are heavily "good sperm". Married women looking to cheat are "good sperm". But most women, when settling down, tend to err ont he side of "safety", especially if they have had bad experiences with relationships or players or PUAs to reinforce their vulnerability in their subconscious mind.


"good sperm" is born in the emotional side of the female mind

but "safety" tends to be born in the logical side

I wonder at times if the online pua community focuses too much on the emotional side, and if soem of the tactics aren't in fact counterproductive to establishing a relationship.


as an example, i read "The Mystery Method", and I will now pick on the "neg" as an example.

The "neg" is awesomely powerful in combo with neg/nice, neg/nice as Mystery describes. I've never seen anybody who actually knew the term use it, but i've seen it done, and i've done it. It is outclassed only, in my experience, for creating interest/getting attention from hot girls by the rare times when one gets a chance to be an actual alpha of an actual semi-closed social group.

In this work, Mystery doesn't mention another way to gain interest from girls. Sit and wait. Sit and wait. Sit and wait. Ahhh, there. She did something actually interesting, now start a conversation/make a comment about what she did that was actually interesting.

They both have about the same effect, i guess. or some of the same effects. They give you a way to disarm a girls "bitch shield", a way of approaching/interacting that doesn't radiate "oh god, please fuck me, please fuck me now".

Which is more powerful? The neg, hands down. not even close. its not as situational, its far more emotionally powerful, and blah blah blah.

But, flash forward a month, say (or whatever) to a time when a girl is sitting around (and you're not there, not emotionally stimulating her) thinking you over. GIRLS DO HAVE RATIONAL MINDS, LOGICAL SIDES, guys, and eventually those kick in.

She could look back, while feeling insecure because you stimulate her emotions (and that same stimulation that breeds attraction does ultimate cause insecurity, for the exact same reason that it casues attraction. attraction = high value. safety fears, to an extent, high value because if you're so great why would you want to be with her?) and think

A) why does this great guy like me anyway? how did we meet? oh, yeah, he insulted me and pissed me off and then i got competitive with him and put out

B) oh yeah, he really liked my quirkiness

see where i'm going with that? its just a thought that i offer for the group to consider, feel free to refute.


One more thought to share before i get to work.

[phoenix]

This is just too long. omg.

Couldnt you have said the theory in a few sentences?

Or made he actual theory BOLD?

[Horus]

Parnelli- I’m glad you posted. You get what I'm saying and can see you’ve traveled down this path before.

Lover/Provider. Females (Or I should say, there Genes) actually process this information. Without being redundant of my thread I would like to add another analogy perhaps. It seems that there comes a point, after the SPARKS and excitement have cooled down where they start to look at it as TRANSACTIONAL. Almost like a business deal. I know its sound cynical, but how can we not look at it that way.

-She's emotionally attracted to you and has decided to Mate. (This goes on for a while)

-Time passes and her Logical mind of PROVIDER characteristics kicks in. If you’re "PROVIDER GAME" isn’t in check, she’s gone, and even worse chooses an AFC with SOLID PROVIDER attributes. She controls him and knows he’s not going anywhere and she feels SAFE and taken care of. After all, evolutionarily speaking that takes priority.

Best,
Horus.

[Steel Balls]

can't you just be a lover one minute and randomly be a provider the next in a LTR? Like, she knows your not going anywhere but you still do jealousy plotlines and negs sometimes just to raise her attraction?

BTW I never had LTRs before so I'm not speaking from experience.

[Rich_101]

These are some fasinating observastions of the MM and Venusian arts in general. When I was an afc I had 5 gfs over the span of 5 years and maybe one ONS. Now that I pu in the last year I have had around 15-20 sexual relationships and not one gf! Would I have wanted a gf....sure. I've tried to take them to LTR but it never works out.

Maybe the whole pu is geared toward becoming the LOVER while becoming the PROVIDER requires a whole other set of skills(some of which are counterintuitive to pickup and seem afc). I'll let brighter minds ponder this....

[Mimicita]

These are some fasinating observastions of the MM and Venusian arts in general. When I was an afc I had 5 gfs over the span of 5 years and maybe one ONS. Now that I pu in the last year I have had around 15-20 sexual relationships and not one gf! Would I have wanted a gf....sure. I've tried to take them to LTR but it never works out.

Maybe the whole pu is geared toward becoming the LOVER while becoming the PROVIDER requires a whole other set of skills(some of which are counterintuitive to pickup and seem afc). I'll let brighter minds ponder this....

You're absolutely right - these "skills" may seem AFC, but that's not the case at all. You can have it both ways - seduction and intimacy are NOT mutually exclusive.

There are no "skills" involved here at all. It has more to do with the attitude and approach. Firstly, do you know which qualities you would like your future LTR girlfriend to have? If the girls you get involved with don't have them, then there is little chance that it will lead to anything deeper than a casual sexual relationship.

Secondly, if you meet these girls with the PU frame, thus inadvertently sabotaging a possibility of establishing a loving relationship, you could be overlooking something good - something that may actually interest you. When you meet somebody with a certain agenda in mind, or if you keep them at arm's length because you are afraid to appear vulnerable in their eyes, this sets a chilly tone to the whole relationship. The girl would intrinsically sense that distance and will keep you at an arm's length, as well. Establishing real connections is a lot different than getting girls into bed.

By honing your PU skills, you've had a lot of practice in meeting new people, which is great. Just think of it this way - you are going out there to meet new friends. They're not "targets", they're not just some random "HBs", but are people who you feel will enjoy knowing you and you will enjoy knowing them. Not "just friends", of course. No matter who you allow to enter your life, it should be a person you respect and admire for at least some traits that are important to you in a friend.

Of course, you do need to be honest with them and let them know that you are interested in them sexually. This way, you'll have a much easier time getting to know new girls - because they will feel comfortable around you. They will feel that you are someone who is interested in them, someone who understands them and cares for them and is an honorable person, and they will not try to put up defenses. This paradigm will work in any circumstance - sure, not every girl you pick up will end up being someone who is right for you in terms of a LTR. Regardless of who you meet, your relationships will be a lot more satisfying, no matter the level of involvement. Soon enough, you will be bound to meet someone who connects with you at just the right frequency - and you will be able to establish a loving relationship without any AFC-related insecurity or self-doubt. :)

[Horus]

Some great responses here.:)

Maybe the whole pu is geared toward becoming the LOVER while becoming the PROVIDER requires a whole other set of skills(some of which are counterintuitive to pickup and seem afc). I'll let brighter minds ponder this....


Well YES rich_101. Did you read the ORIGIONAL POST? The entire reason I started this thread was to address that concept. It goes into detail about it. If you haven't read it, you should.

I’m glad most of you agree. I think it’s great we can all keep an open mind to this and not pigeon hole our mentality. I believe strongly in this concept and the reason why it is so long is because I wanted to show the readers from where the concepts emerged instead of just writing them out. When you know where things come from you understand them MORE.

I can't believe it has almost been one year since I wrote the article. It is good that it is still on the first page almost a year later. Goes to show how many of us can relate to such a concept.

Best,

[Rich_101]

You're absolutely right - these "skills" may seem AFC, but that's not the case at all. You can have it both ways - seduction and intimacy are NOT mutually exclusive.

There are no "skills" involved here at all. It has more to do with the attitude and approach. Firstly, do you know which qualities you would like your future LTR girlfriend to have? If the girls you get involved with don't have them, then there is little chance that it will lead to anything deeper than a casual sexual relationship.

Secondly, if you meet these girls with the PU frame, thus inadvertently sabotaging a possibility of establishing a loving relationship, you could be overlooking something good - something that may actually interest you. When you meet somebody with a certain agenda in mind, or if you keep them at arm's length because you are afraid to appear vulnerable in their eyes, this sets a chilly tone to the whole relationship. The girl would intrinsically sense that distance and will keep you at an arm's length, as well. Establishing real connections is a lot different than getting girls into bed.

By honing your PU skills, you've had a lot of practice in meeting new people, which is great. Just think of it this way - you are going out there to meet new friends. They're not "targets", they're not just some random "HBs", but are people who you feel will enjoy knowing you and you will enjoy knowing them. Not "just friends", of course. No matter who you allow to enter your life, it should be a person you respect and admire for at least some traits that are important to you in a friend.

Of course, you do need to be honest with them and let them know that you are interested in them sexually. This way, you'll have a much easier time getting to know new girls - because they will feel comfortable around you. They will feel that you are someone who is interested in them, someone who understands them and cares for them and is an honorable person, and they will not try to put up defenses. This paradigm will work in any circumstance - sure, not every girl you pick up will end up being someone who is right for you in terms of a LTR. Regardless of who you meet, your relationships will be a lot more satisfying, no matter the level of involvement. Soon enough, you will be bound to meet someone who connects with you at just the right frequency - and you will be able to establish a loving relationship without any AFC-related insecurity or self-doubt. :)


Thanks for the insight. The weird thing is the more I improve my game, the I realize more and more that my desire to get into LTR fades. When I started all I said was i was going to learn enough to find the 'right' GF then I would live happily ever after. At this point I could care less if I have GF I actually enjoy gaming, I enjoying meeting random people everynight I go out without having to worry about keeping my GF happy or whatever. I never thought it would happen but i'm wondering if this is normal or what.

[Magic_man]

Be lover and provider?

its possible, and Ive done it pretty much you need to run your game as if its on steroids, freeze out BIG for a few days if she says something annoying, dont be afraid to call her wrong etc.

yet....

stop and pick her flowers at random, help her when shes failing, let her know youll stay.

This is a very basic explanation, but thats cus theres so much typed here already.

[Horus]

Hey guys,

Well it's been a while since I’ve been back on the forum. Been learning a few things in my time away.

Maybe it’s me but I’ve noticed lately that even though you run solid game, sometimes it just doesn’t work. Now there are those that will say, "well if it didn't hook then you did something wrong" But I disagree totally. I seen extremely attractive women, choose to stay with AFC men over ALPHA males, I’ve seen really good-looking guys date ugly girls. The truth of the matter is, there is no certainty in life. There is just experience and "plausible" outcomes. Nothing is for sure carved in stone. Just because you fucked up with a certain girl, does not mean its over, does not mean she will never be attracted to you. That is one of the biggest realizations I’ve come across.

Listen guys, learning the game is great, fun and exciting. But don’t let it define who you are. Am I a pick up artist or am I not a pick up artist? Don’t allow the community to brand you. There are no mistakes; there is only experience in life.

There are certain types of girls that just won’t like you no matter what you say or what you do. That is just the way it is. But the important thing to UNDERSTAND is that it has nothing to do with YOU at all. You didn't do anything wrong, you didn’t miss an IOI, you didn't fail to transition from A3 to C1. There idea of attractive just doesn’t fit who you are. BUT IT’S NOT BECUASE OF YOU.

I’m not saying there are no such things as unattractive or attractive behaviors. Of course calling a girl 56 times a day and supplicating is unattractive. I’m not saying it's ok to do that, not even close. There just comes a point when you've learned the game after much trail and error and sometimes it just dosen't turn out the way you thought it was suppose to.

I’ve been in the game now for almost 5 years. 5 YEARS man. I have seen so much and I continue to see more every day. There are women out there that don't give a shit. They act like PUA's. They can't be seduced, its just not part of there makeup, of who they are. Some girls are just damaged goods and need constant attention. The game works really well on those ones btw.

There is one common denominator I’ve noticed in the game that I agree with. That is the concept of DHV. If you have high social status or value then yes there is a very good chance she will be attracted to you. But the question is guys; do you want that type of girl? If you date her and your status lowers, will she leave you for the next guy who has higher value. The answer is yes, there is a very good chance she will IME.

Bottom line here guys is really simple. And I know it may come as a surprise:

Just be yourself.

I know it kind of sounds cheesy but its the real truth. I’ve gone around this gaming circle to end up at the point where I realized what a good friend told me nearly 5 years ago. BE YOURSELF. It’s very true. Believe it or not, you will find a girl that will love you for you. Not the you that supplicates to a women. But the you that is happy. The you that is content with WHO YOU ARE. The NATURAL YOU that has no fear. The you that is not attached to any outcome. Almost they way you would act with your best friends, when all is good. Thats the YOU im talking about.



Sincerely.
Horus.