The Misuse Of The Neg

[Maverick]

Hi all;
I'm writing to address a topic that is fairly important that ALOT of guys seem to have a problem with. I see alot of puas who have good game blow out sets just by negging too much. There is a fine line between "just enough" and "Get out of here you creep!"

You should almost never have to neg more than 3 times. I've seen guys who have negged 3 times in a single sentence. This is overkill. Open the obstacle in a set, throw a time constraint, tease/neg the target , DHV, neg again if necessary, DHV, isolate. This is the proper outline of a PU.

This is not... Open. Neg. Neg. Neg. Neg. Neg. *SMACK*

A neg is NOT an insult. Too many people are being extremely overt when negging. "You must be a name brand hooker!" This is not a neg, it is an insult.
A neg is not meant to attack the girl. It is used to deflate her overinflated ego by treating her like you would one of the guys. If your buddy said something dumb you would bust on him. Do the same for the girl. Make her feel like the girl you make "blonde" jokes about. Set up a teasing playful dynamic.

Examples of negs:

"You're funny sometimes" - The sometimes adds uncertainty to the statement.

When she's talking to you casually look at your watch and act as though you're pressed for time. This is subtle, she will pick it up.

"Omg, you're such a dork"

"You're kinda cute, you remind me of my little sister"

Wipe spit off your shirt as though she spit on you. Imagine the last time someone did that to you because you accidentally spit on them but they were too polite to say anything. You felt a little awkward and embarrassed but didn't want to say anything either. This is the feeling you want to illicit in her.

Keep in mind that a neg is just a small part of the larger picture. You cannot close with a neg alone and you cannot close effectively without it. Just use it in moderation. Start counting the number of negs you throw out. A 10 gets three, a 9 gets 2-3, an 8 gets 2, anything below an 8 should get 1 good one.

Cheers
- Maverick

[JimSmith]

1. How do u use negs as an opening?
2. On single girls that arent very responsive/talkative, and its hard to say "you and i wouldnt get along' or 'You're funny sometimes', whats a good random neg thats easy to to throw out in the start?
The easiest one i found is sayin how u saw another with the same shirt somewhere else. Even that isn't very effective.

[Mild_Seven]

You should almost never have to neg more than 3 times. I've seen guys who have negged 3 times in a single sentence. This is overkill. Open the obstacle in a set, throw a time constraint, tease/neg the target , DHV, neg again if necessary, DHV, isolate. This is the proper outline of a PU.

This is not... Open. Neg. Neg. Neg. Neg. Neg. *SMACK*

In my opinion tease negs are completely different from shotgun negs and sniper negs, and I tease throughout the entire pickup, once the set has hooked. The key is that I have to smile so she knows I'm playing. Stuff like "You're funny...sometimes" is gold, but said with a smile I don't think it's a neg at all. Said with no smile, it can be a neg.

If I get a smile on approach, I go straight into push-pull teasing almost immediately, essentially skipping A2 (and that means no neg. I don't neg when the girl is receptive). Awesome for day game and for girls HB8 and below.

[Malibu]

Totally agree.

The neg is probably the MOST misused tool in the community.

nice post Mav.

[RetiredNinja]

Outstanding Post.

[Jester]

I also couldnt agree more.

I ALWAYS use tease negs. Thats just my personality and my frame. However I very rarely use sniper or shotgun negs. You can get away with alot more tease negs than any other. Its what mates do to each other and what you do to your bratty little sister and brother.

I think that the reason that negs are overused and misused is because most guys (and girls?) new to this underestimate their actual value. So they use negs to try and bring them to their self perceived value level, often blowing themselves out by pulling her down too far and making themself come across as a jerk off.

[CrimsonKing]

This is an excellent post. Well done.

[ware_ru]

teasing is an ioi and iod wrapped into one, and thus not a neg in its most proper sense (the fundamental purpose of a neg is as an fdq)

[Maverick]

Bump b/c i'm an attention whore

[nbpua]

are you the same maverick mentioned along with vision's and dreamweaver?

[relics]

short and sweet,

Nice Post, but there've been other posts that have went deeper into negging (Neg:) )

[Maverick]

are you the same maverick mentioned along with vision's and dreamweaver?

I may be - where's the reference?

-Mav

[nbpua]

in the book "the game" where neil writes about the credits he mentions a Maverick....... then again, if you were "that" Maverick you wouldn't have asked that question.

[Maverick]

No I'm not that one - but keep in mind that alot of the characters in the book were combinations, that was most likely one of them. I've been the only active "Maverick" for the past 4 years. There was one on ASF a while ago but he hasn't been active since late 2002 I believe.

Cheers.
- Mav

[ReallyPatheticFatSlob]

The proper use or even evil intended misuse of negs can be fun in so many colorful ways.

Some women, let's call these women bitches, I know that the bitch does not exist to some people, but I disagree with that sentiment entirely.

It is the PUA's duty to put up with, tolerate, and work with a woman's bad behavior. Sometimes one cannot entreat a bitch to play nice.

All means of civil communication can and will break down, thus producing a state of war. The bitch can be handled with minimal effort by using our friends THE NEGS. I used five consecutive negs on one of these women, and she looked like she was going to explode. She literally had to physically get away from me and everyone else, and she retreated to a small dark corner to pine. :D

I thought it was funny. I thought she would realise after the first three negs that I was trying to get a raise out of her, but the humiliation over-ran her consciousness and she just felt the pangs of an humble existence.

Poor lady, poor funny lady, Once so mean to men, and now cowering in a corner all because of little old me.

[Panache]

Hi all;

Keep in mind that a neg is just a small part of the larger picture. You cannot close with a neg alone and you cannot close effectively without it.


LOL... Neg's aren't needed to close effectively.

But decent post for 80% of the masses. In my experience, I find most people negging from a place of insecurity, instead of their identity, and hence the poor results.

For those who have already achieved high value, try mutual value escalation.


Enjoy the journey, not the destination.



P

[JimSmith]

i think negging is mostly about placing them correctly, and throw + go.

alot of negs dont apply well in a conversation if u randomly throw it in.

thats why i like flexible easy negs

[Razor]

NEG- is a negative compliment.
Here is an example:
PUA: Your hair is nice, but it would be nicer if you com it.
So that's one example of NEG.
Hope this will help you.

-Razor

[Jester]

once again. the neg is used to take down a bitch shield. period.

-Rewok

That is one purpose yes. There are many others. Ie tease negs can be used to spike attraction at anytime during the sarge.

Its not as black and white as simply being a 'backhanded compliment'

I think that some people here may have actually overlooked the purpose of the thread. Its about the over use and mis use of negs. Mav has reminded us all that we dont need to neg soo much. Not what its purpose is.

This isnt reinventing the neg wheel here. There are soo many threads on the theory of negging that its not even funny. This doesnt need to be one of them.

[Orleans]

Mav has reminded us all that we dont need to neg soo much.

A 10 gets three, a 9 gets 2-3, an 8 gets 2, anything below an 8 should get 1 good one.

I'd go as far as to challenge that unless you're getting serious problems from your target... to neg any girl less than a 10 more than once is unnecessary.

Remember kids. A 10 doesn't just mean looks, if it's a girl's birthday and she's out with her friends she's a 10. Being a 10 is a mentality. A way of thinking.

Callibrate.

[Maverick]

no. teasing spikes bt. teasing isnt a neg. a neg breaks a bitch shield. it is very black and white but the new kids in the community dont know what the hell negging or AMOGing is so they apply it to every situation with either a joke or another male, respectivelly.

you calling teasing and cocky funny a neg IS mis and overuse.

-Rewok

Rewok - it's all part of false disqualification theory. A low value guy is not gonna tease a 10, effectively making it a neg. Stop being so black & white.

-Mav

[Maverick]

That is one purpose yes. There are many others. Ie tease negs can be used to spike attraction at anytime during the sarge.

Its not as black and white as simply being a 'backhanded compliment'

I think that some people here may have actually overlooked the purpose of the thread. Its about the over use and mis use of negs. Mav has reminded us all that we dont need to neg soo much. Not what its purpose is.

This isnt reinventing the neg wheel here. There are soo many threads on the theory of negging that its not even funny. This doesnt need to be one of them.

Thank you :) - Well summarized

[CrimsonKing]

I'd go as far as to challenge that unless you're getting serious problems from your target... to neg any girl less than a 10 more than once is unnecessary.

Remember kids. A 10 doesn't just mean looks, if it's a girl's birthday and she's out with her friends she's a 10. Being a 10 is a mentality. A way of thinking.

Callibrate.
Orleans makes an excellent point.

Here's a little story for you:
When I was first getting into the game, one of the first girls I gamed successfully was an 8-8.5 in terms of looks. But she had the mentality of an SHB11. This girl had some serious game too and she knew it. She could get any AFC (even the best naturals) to do anything for her. She would go to self-serve gas stations and get guys (or even the clerks) to pump her gas for her.

I was soooo mean to this girl, partially because I had little calibration, and partially because I knew how much value she felt she had. I pushed this girl away and negged her so bad I was sure on multiple occassions that I would never hear from her again. One of my favorites was the first time we talked on the phone and she was going on about her hair (she had curly-ish blonde hair) and I said "You kow what I find REALLY sexy? Straight black hair." That cut her so deep that she brought it up for months. But she sure did try to qualify herself an aweful lot.

[relics]

Rewok is right, and neg has been expanded into disqualification theory as maverick said.

You can get away without negging tens, and you shouldn't stick to any arbitrary rules with negging. Calibrate.

[Maverick]

dont be such a theory whore Mav. or a racist.

-Rewok

Huh? lol
_______

[Yoda]

You mentioned that we should emulate the attitude we use when we make dumb blonde jokes, my question is: is that a neg?

To approach a blonde bombshell and throw up a few dumb blonde jokes? Even if it dosent work it sounds like fun. :D

[Maverick]

Well not necessarily to open - but yeah. If she did something that wasn't too inteligent could reply with "Damn, i guess all those blonde jokes were true!"

The girl I'm seeing right now is a 9 but she's a geek, and i bust on her for it all the time. She knows I'm kidding but a regular joe would be so preoccupied with wooing her that it wouldn't even cross his mind to make fun of her. THAT is what sets you apart, and partially disqualifies your interest in her.

-Mav

[ware_ru]

the official party line of TMM definitely, and probably of VA as well, is that a neg is a false disqualifier. They make the girl think yo uare NOT pursuing her.

TEASING AND COCKY FUNNY ARE FLIRTING. Everyone who isn't a social retard knows that they are flirting (albeit competent flirting). A neg, on the other hand, is an FDQ, ONLY.

Teasing is an ioi and iod wrapped into one. That's why if you tease too early you get bad reactions. They are a way of AMPLIFYING some sort of initial attraction, because once she is attracted, you can throw iois and hit on her. But if she's not even remotely attracted and you try to tease her she thinks "wtf this loser is trying to tease me? i'm cooler than him, what a fucking loser wtf."

A neg is a FALSE DISQUALIFIER, ONLY. ONLY ONLY ONLY. If we are going to make pickup into a science we have to try to be as correct as possible.


Props to Rewok for contributing actual truths to this thread

[DJ Puff n Stuff]

ware_ru
Thanks for the clarification.
I had been getting a little confused with some of the information/posts I've been reading lately. You and the other contributors to this thread helped cement the correct concept a lot better.

[sigma]

I abandoned negging a long time ago

I laugh when I see guys do it

[DJ Puff n Stuff]

Sigma: I don't know about abandoning the neg all together.
I think of negs like condoms. Every once and a while, there will be a girl that makes you use one.

[spearhead21]

the official party line of TMM definitely, and probably of VA as well, is that a neg is a false disqualifier. They make the girl think yo uare NOT pursuing her.

TEASING AND COCKY FUNNY ARE FLIRTING. Everyone who isn't a social retard knows that they are flirting (albeit competent flirting). A neg, on the other hand, is an FDQ, ONLY.

Teasing is an ioi and iod wrapped into one. That's why if you tease too early you get bad reactions. They are a way of AMPLIFYING some sort of initial attraction, because once she is attracted, you can throw iois and hit on her. But if she's not even remotely attracted and you try to tease her she thinks "wtf this loser is trying to tease me? i'm cooler than him, what a fucking loser wtf."

A neg is a FALSE DISQUALIFIER, ONLY. ONLY ONLY ONLY. If we are going to make pickup into a science we have to try to be as correct as possible.


Props to Rewok for contributing actual truths to this thread

Good post.
Big distinction here:

-DISQUALIFICATION (=VALUE ADJUSTMENT):
"Negs", non-needy/neutral/dismissive bodylanguage,not giving her your attention etc-> verbal/non-verbal IODs

-TEASING/PUSH-PULL/PLAYFULNESS (COMPETENT FLIRTING)
These amplify an already EXISTING attraction.

What does this mean:
-If she perceives that her value is higher than yours she won't let you tease her, because she knows exactly what you are doing (emotional stimulation, setting the frame etc., ie. flirting).
Here is when you open and she responds very neutral/disinterested, IODs you etc. Here is when you HAVE to make a value adjustment PRIOR to anything else.
Note: Negs are IODs, but some of them have also a little "teasing" factor to them. Be careful with these/pay attention to the level of the value adjustment you have to make (negs often come off as teasing, aka NO value adjustment, or as an insult which makes you appear socially retarded, aka DLVing). This is why non-verbal IODs are usually MUCH better than common negs and it is usually better to use less negs while increasing nonverbal IODs.
-This means that is you have value right away (looks, good BL, unreactiveness, etc.) and she is somewhat attracted in the moment you open your mouth, you stimulate her emotions/create sexual tension/flirt to amplify the atraction while DHVing and moving things further.
Teasing even may open a girl up who isn't receptive, but only because you are disqualifying yourself as an AFC (ie, you are demonstrating value), but this will only happen if she doesn´t percieve the value gap as big.
If you think she could be more or less attracted right away and go in with teasing and she IODs you (she is one of those who are perhaps a 7, but who think they are the shit), then IOD back (thus, no more flirting after later on).
-If she is very attracted right away and you feel it (it happens sometimes), then DON'T neg and tease if you want but without overdoing it and move things further fast.


Hope it helps.

[sigma]

Sigma: I don't know about abandoning the neg all together.
I think of negs like condoms. Every once and a while, there will be a girl that makes you use one.



VERY well said...


I guess I just dont use them mmuch anymore... I did when I started..

(negs NOT condoms..LoL)

[ReallyPatheticFatSlob]

So the theory is attraction is all about value.

How is value determined, measured, and is it on a conscious or less conscious level that these devices work?

If a man's value is high before he interacts with a woman, then negs will be superfluous. How does one raise his value before he opens?

[free_ethos]

Great thread Maverick! Good read and committed to memory.

[L.A. Tripp]

I tease more than I neg. In fact I tease almost every girl I talk to. Even upon opening.

The NEG has been taught as a backhanded compliment, but I believe in the girl's mind she consciously sees it as something different from the guy, something she doesn't expect, something that catches her off guard (when used appropriately), which serves to bring her attention around to the one that threw the NEG (and moved on immediately).

So in the end, it catches her attention, shows her there is something different about this guy and maybe she wants to know more, and starts to stimulate a slight spark because the guy MAY hold some interest for her.

"I can't believe he said that. Wow, this guy might actually have some balls. Maybe I should probe him a bit deeper."

[Dwight44]

I tease more than I neg. In fact I tease almost every girl I talk to. Even upon opening.

The NEG has been taught as a backhanded compliment, but I believe in the girl's mind she consciously sees it as something different from the guy, something she doesn't expect, something that catches her off guard (when used appropriately), which serves to bring her attention around to the one that threw the NEG (and moved on immediately).

So in the end, it catches her attention, shows her there is something different about this guy and maybe she wants to know more, and starts to stimulate a slight spark because the guy MAY hold some interest for her.

"I can't believe he said that. Wow, this guy might actually have some balls. Maybe I should probe him a bit deeper."

Good post

Yea, I just think of negging as teasing. They work both the same.

[smoosh]

Let me clear this up once and for all.

Yea, I just think of negging as teasing. They work both the same.

A neg ONLY fall into the teasing category when used in microcalibration.

Bait/Hook/Reel/Release, push/pull, etc...


According to VA.

Negs fall under the category of disqualifiers. It conveys higher value and builds comfort and trust. By creating the impression that you aren't trying to get something, disinterest can be very disarming to targets and obstacles alike, allowing you to get much further than you otherwise would have.

It is also useful for gaining compliance momentum, by using it as a punishment for bad behavior.

There are active disinterest and passive disinterest.

Neg: Any gambit that, without insult, disqualifies oneself as a potential suitor. -Mystery

When the group views you with suspicion, neg them to disarm them. etc...

So even a time constraint, hand throw, under reacting, etc.. one way or the other is a neg.

This should clear thing up,:o

~Smoosh

[L.A. Tripp]

Doesn't that contradict using two to three negs at the most for a 10?

[Dwight44]

I would just get rid of the term "neg" if I were you or anybody...people totally misuse it

Think "tease"...its better

[L.A. Tripp]

Dwight, that's impossible, as has been pointed out already. Negging and teasing are two different things.

Oh, but you don't read everything . . . lol

[Dwight44]

Dwight, that's impossible, as has been pointed out already. Negging and teasing are two different things.

Oh, but you don't read everything . . . lol

Actually, negging and teasing go hand in hand

A guy who is hitting on a girl doesnt neg/tease so it is a disqualifier

[azazels_wolf]

So even a time constraint, hand throw, under reacting, etc.. one way or the other is a neg.


Those would be more like IODs. All negs are IODs, but not all IODs are negs.
But that's mostly semantics anyways.

As for negging and teasing, there is a specific category of negs called "tease negs" which tend to be a little lighter than other negs, and can continue to be used (with calibration / when appropriate) even after attraction phase.

[L.A. Tripp]

Thank you AW.

So Dwight, you are one of those guys that will fire hard neg after hard neg at a girl all night long, whether she's a solid 10 or a 5, in an effort to keep building attraction?

[Dwight44]

Thank you AW.

So Dwight, you are one of those guys that will fire hard neg after hard neg at a girl all night long, whether she's a solid 10 or a 5, in an effort to keep building attraction?

Yup, I tease, tease tease

[Syd.PUA.novice]

great post mav!

i was actually going to ask a similar question which this post already started to answer.

(quick semi-intro as i haven't done one yet) personally i can come across as quite arrogant/cocky/jerk like. I guess on a cocky scale of 1-10, I would class myself around a 6. But for some reason, this gets amplified when I am around a girl im attracted to or when i drink a little to much.

I have noticed that this has killed me many times when im talking to a new set or im introduced to a group/couple of girls through friends that I am attracted to... and yeh causes me to totally blow it.

I can think of heaps of times but cant remember exact situations, heres one ill try:

Opened a set by seeing two girls sitting down on a couch in a bar, I walk up and sit down, just sit there for about 15 sec until they both look at me and say a big "Hi!, hows your nite going", then my wing in usual style comes over and asks the girls if im annoying them or something like that so he can enter the convo.

anyways, we were talking all going well then one of them said i have to go to the bathroom, be back in a sec and obviously the other one followed her.

we got up and walked off, not to sit around looking needy. later in the night we bumped into them again and they started talking to us. "hey where did you go you wernt there when we came back" bla bla - so i said something along the lines of "why would we wait for you" - just something a little arrogant when im thinking back to their reaction.

they had the open mouth, cant believe i just said that look. but then my dumbself carried on... you shouldnt have left, you missed your opportuntity. continue walking.

some crap like that which obviously drove them away caus i went overboard

anyways back to the above. I think a major part of my game is to get rid of or massively tone down this part of my persona (opposite to alot of noobs i know)

anyone have any ideas, excercises, inner game techniques to help me town down my negs/cocky

or to add heaps of humour to them (i think i may come off as serious or just a dick sometimes)

or excersises to actually make me a less arrogant person?

(what ever works best - and apologies if this post is in the wrong thread, got a little carried away)

thanks!

[Count Duckula]

Its a good job you're waering glasses

[azazels_wolf]

Syd.PUA:

Check out my discussion with Mack Wild regarding this topic. It might give you some insights or ideas.

http://www.venusianarts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14876

[L.A. Tripp]

Syd, along with AW's thread suggestion, check out David DeAngelo's material. He gives some exercises to help develop the Cocky and Funny technique.

[Syd.PUA.novice]

Cool, thanks guys. Yeh i have listened to the DD's C&F audio, its pretty good.

Ive spent the last week trying to focus on reducy my cockyness / arrogance and had some good success. Im a pretty good looking guy (blows own trumpet) so I think sometimes I just come off as a dick... plus i already have value from my looks so dont need the C&F so much.

this week I just focused on creative questioning... get them talking - lots of "how does that make you feel?" questions. Also playing little games, just things to get them comfortable.

I find in a club I can build attraction purely from body language, confidence in approach and my looks... as long as I engage the target. Altho, im still nowhere near as selective as I would like to be and my hit rate is pretty low... still in training!

[L.A. Tripp]

Syd, that progress is good.

Good body language and confidence in your approach . . . yet your not as selective as you need to be . . . sounds to me like you're slightly putting up a confident front but your inner game isn't all the way there. Work on that. Know your own value.

[Syd.PUA.novice]

Thanks Tripp.

I think your bang on there tho with the confident front. Its nice to have an external opinion like that.

I know this is true because i still definately get AA... most of my approaches are done after ive had a few drinks which is usualy the addiitonal confidence boost I need, maybe not so much from the actual confidence side of things but more to get me into the mood if you know what i mean.

I can approach without drinking, but I still need to be in the mood. ie if im just going to lunch or walking home from work or something like that and am not thinking about going out and sarging and I see a HB i wont approach because I tell my self im not in the right frame... because of this i miss soooo many opportunities...

and again in other circumstances there will just be little things that will kill my 'mood' and cause me to not approach. ie ive just eaten a big meal and feel bloated, or im tired or im worried what the people around me might think.

sometimes i will approach with these feelings and not care at all but lots of the time it will stop me...

dunno, something i need to get sorted.

any ideas that might be able to help me?

ive been doing a fair bit of reading etc... but i think i just need to go on some hectic day sarging sessions, something I havent really done yet.

I dont really have a wing either (that would be effective in day sarging) which makes it a little more nerve racking..

[L.A. Tripp]

Lacking a wing takes away the EXTERNAL motivation, which just means that you need to work more on the INTERNAL motivation. Which, by the way, will also help the INTERNAL frame as well, which obviously helps with keeping a solid frame.

I started by myself and sarged by myself for months, literally. My learning curve was by sarging alone.

It's good to study, but that does not replace field experience and calibration. I wouldn't even say a "hectic" sarge or marathon sarge, but it could be helpful. You just need to get out of your own head. Realize you have worth, understand how to CONVEY that worth to others, and do just that.

Then, when you realize you have worth, and you see an interesting looking female, you should be able to HANDLE YOURSELF, which is the problem, and introduce her to your life.

[Frozen Flame]

Any gambit that, without insult, disqualifies oneself as a potential
suitor. —Mystery

[Sonic100]

I tend to see a neg as a punishment. Not a harsh one because, as pointed out, a neg is a negative compliment (but the girl gets the message). So I might use a neg if a girl fails a compliance test, or if she tries shit testing me, or if she tries blowing me out (in the bad way :) ).

To me a neg is the socially subtle equivalent of spanking a dog for being naughty. The girl knows what she did and what you mean when you say it. It's like a subcommunicative "Who do you think YOU are to talk to ME like that", but because it's said in a joking way she can't get snotty about it. If she did that would mean SHE is the one violating social norms. Savoy (if I'm allowed to use his name on here! :) ) did a good interview that talked about how women fear violating social norms in the same way we fear hand granades.

The biggest thing that made me realise I was negging wrong was when I realised I must have just being going in set and punishing her by negging, even when she was demonstrating behaviour I wanted.

Hopefully this post helps people avoid the same mistake but if it doesn't, experience in the field will.

Sonic

[azazels_wolf]

Yes - which leads right into Social Violation Theory, which is extremely useful:
http://www.venusianarts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127